Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Amazer]

I see, you mean we haven't seen the best arguments this time?

No, we haven't seen the best arguments this time. The best arguments would have some evidence to back them up. Easy to step from the concrete planter on to the window sill. Okay, prove it.

In that respect I admire Halides and Dan O., they not only have their theories, they also try to provide evidence that supports those claims.

 

[Chris C]

Hello Katody Matrass and thank you for your welcome.

What deal did Rudy make with the prosecution? I have not heard or read anything about this. Would you please elaborate?

I'm not sure that I see any incentive for Rudy to finger Amanda or Raffaele as we see what happened from Amanda fingering Patrick Lamumba. Had Amanda and Raffaele been acquitted in their trial, I believe there would be consequences for Rudy falsely accusing them. Perhaps if they have luck in winning their appeals, there may be. We'll soon see.

At any rate, the saddest thing here is that the three people convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher get so much more consideration than she or her family. I find that disturbing and a sad reflection on society as a whole. (Yes, I do include myself in that)

Again, thanks for welcome.

Rudy didn't make any deal. He did what any guilty person and alot of innocent people would have done in his position. Shift the blame. He blamed the person Mignini REALLY wants and tries to turn himself into a witness rather than the Murderer.

His original/later claims: (To the best of knowledge he hasn't changed these)
Meredith let him in the apartment.
He had consensual sexual touching with Meredith.
Someone killed Meredith while he was taking a crap in the far bathroom.

The person that killed Meredith has changed:
Blackhaired Man followed Meredith.
Lefthanded Man kills and possibly rapes Meredith,
Man kills Meredith and he hears a woman outside.
Sollecito kills Meredith and he hears Knox voice.
Sollecito kills Meredith and he sees Knox.

 

[RWVBWL]

What were they doing between 1:45 and 5:45, playing Chutes and Ladders? "Murder in Italy" makes it clear it was more of the same abusive interrogation tactics.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Halides1,
Actually, I think that they were playing "Clue" ,
you know, guessing that Amanda did it, with the knife, in Meredith's Room.

Funny how Amanda DID NOT leave 1 little bit of evidence that she was even in that room though...
RWVBWL

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hello Katody Matrass and thank you for your welcome.

What deal did Rudy make with the prosecution? I have not heard or read anything about this. Would you please elaborate?

If there were any inexplicable reduction of sentence it would suggest such a deal. But I don't know enough about legal aspects to have an opinion or discuss it.

I'm not sure that I see any incentive for Rudy to finger Amanda or Raffaele as we see what happened from Amanda fingering Patrick Lamumba. Had Amanda and Raffaele been acquitted in their trial, I believe there would be consequences for Rudy falsely accusing them. Perhaps if they have luck in winning their appeals, there may be. We'll soon see.

I think Rudy fingered them only when they were well established as suspects and there were a lot of serious looking evidence leaked against them. I don't think consequences of false accusation looked scary to him at that moment and in his situation.

At any rate, the saddest thing here is that the three people convicted of murdering Meredith Kercher get so much more consideration than she or her family. I find that disturbing and a sad reflection on society as a whole. (Yes, I do include myself in that)

Again, thanks for your welcome.

True, it's sad that her family cannot find peace for so many years because of the prolonging legal process. I cannot even imagine what they will have to deal with when AK and RS finally get an acquittal.

 

[Maya C]

Rudy didn't make any deal. He did what any guilty person and alot of innocent people would have done in his position. Shift the blame. He blamed the person Mignini REALLY wants and tries to turn himself into a witness rather than the Murderer.

His original/later claims: (To the best of knowledge he hasn't changed these)
Meredith let him in the apartment.
He had consensual sexual touching with Meredith.
Someone killed Meredith while he was taking a crap in the far bathroom.

The person that killed Meredith has changed:
Blackhaired Man followed Meredith.
Lefthanded Man kills and possibly rapes Meredith,
Man kills Meredith and he hears a woman outside.
Sollecito kills Meredith and he hears Knox voice.
Sollecito kills Meredith and he sees Knox.

Hello Chris C,

Okay, thank you. It appeared from Katody Mattrass's post that Rudy had struck some deal with the prosecution, which is why I questioned. I put very little faith in anything Rudy has to say.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Chris C,
I want to work on a project where in I can have links to ALL the that Rudy Guede has said and also his trial testimony too.
You seem to have a lot of info on RG, so can you post any links that you might have saved already?
Thanks, RWVBWL

 

[Matthew Best]

I will go along with the accepted view that there was a break-in.

Yes, I agree with colonelhall. The idea that it was staged is no longer the accepted view.

 

[Maya C]

If there were any inexplicable reduction of sentence it would suggest such a deal. But I don't know enough about legal aspects to have an opinion or discuss it.

*****Since I'm not sure how to make it clear which is yours and which is mine, the paragraphs with the asterisks will indicate my reply/response. Hope this is okay...If the 6 years is what you are referring to, that is for his young age and lack of criminal record (this does not include rumors of past misdeeds, but recorded on the books, so to speak). Same as the reductions given to Amanda and Raffaele.*****

I think Rudy fingered them only when they were well established as suspects and there were a lot of serious looking evidence leaked against them. I don't think consequences of false accusation looked scary to him at that moment and in his situation.

******Amanda and Raffaele were suspects and in custody when Rudy accused them. As for what went on in his head or what fear he may or may not have had, I do not know.******



True, it's sad that her family cannot find peace for so many years because of the prolonging legal process. I cannot even imagine what they will have to deal with when AK and RS finally get an acquittal.

*****Can anyone who has lost a child or family member to a brutal, senseless murder ever find peace? I hope I never find out, but just thinking of my own child and the people I love? I would have to say no. Meredith's family has been so dignified throughout that about the only thing I can be certain of is that if evidence proving the innocence of any of the three convicted of murder is uncovered, they will handle it with the grace they have thus far maintained. The epitome of grace under pressure, I'd say. *****

 

[Chris C]

No, we haven't seen the best arguments this time. The best arguments would have some evidence to back them up. Easy to step from the concrete planter on to the window sill. Okay, prove it.

In that respect I admire Halides and Dan O., they not only have their theories, they also try to provide evidence that supports those claims.

That seems to be many guilters stance and the Prosecutions.
Prove it wasn't a staged break in.
Prove it wasn't blood in the luminol footprints.
Prove you where both at Sollecito's.
Prove the homeless guy is wrong.
Prove Nara didn't hear a scream.
Prove the shop owner didn't see you.
Prove there wasn't a clean up.
Prove that your dna wasn't already in the bathroom when we collected blood samples.
Prove Sollecito's knife didn't kill Meredith.
Prove Sollecito didn't touch Meredith's bra clasp.
Prove you are INNOCENT.
ect.....

However, in a system that you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty it should look like this.
Prove it was a staged break in. (failed)
Prove it was a blood in the luminol footprints. (failed)
Prove they where not at Sollecito's. (failed, the police accidentily destroyed the harddrives that would prove whether or not Sollecito/Knox were lying.)
Prove the homeless guy is right. (failed, he changed his story, yet no reason is given)
Prove Nara heard that scream. (failed)
Prove the shop owner saw her. (failed, investigator testified that the shop owner said he hadn't seen her)
Prove there was a clean up. (failed)
Prove Knox's dna wasn't already in the bathroom. (failed, 3rd females profile found in the blood, no control samples taken)
Prove the knife killed Meredith. (failed, it was 2 knives, or wait it was one knife but she didn't try and kill Meredith the first 2 times she stabbed her.)
Prove its Sollecito's DNA and its not contaminated. (failed, its a partial profile made up of 4 peoples dna, no control samples taken)
Did they Prove they are Guilty or did they prove that Knox/Sollecito couldn't Prove they where Innocent?

 

[Justinian2]

[...]
However, in a system that you are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty it should look like this.
[...]

Isn't the Italian system a system where you have to prove that you're innocent? One of the jurists claimed that she voted guilty because she thought there was a possibility (not probability as in the American system) of guilt.

However, I would hope the Italian system has the responsibility to use REAL evidence and plausible theories. Seems that the Italian system is only as good as the prosecutor is sane and honest.

I may be full of it, I don't know the Italian system that well (and hope to never know it)

 

[Katody Matrass]

No, we haven't seen the best arguments this time. The best arguments would have some evidence to back them up. Easy to step from the concrete planter on to the window sill. Okay, prove it.

In that respect I admire Halides and Dan O., they not only have their theories, they also try to provide evidence that supports those claims.

Amazer, I know you would want me to drive to Perugia, make a video of climbing to that window and post it

But sometimes we must just rely on reason and common sense. You've seen the climbing lawyers photos, you know the dimensions of the window and it's surroundings. Quadraginta even proposed some eye-opening exercises to try. If you're unable you can watch online videos to familiarize yourself with what is possible for an agile youngster. If you still cannot connect the dots I don't think I can help you.

I stand with my opinion that it's simple common sense that there is more then one way to enter that window. And as Chris C sensibly suggested - the burden lies on you to prove Rudy didn't enter that window.

 

[Malkmus]

Edited per Dan O's forum rules request.

 

[Maya C]

About the lawyer/window photo, I have only seen one photo. Are there photos of how the lawyer reached that position, as well as photos showing him reaching the sill of Filomena's window and gaining entry? I don't find that one photo proof of anything other than the lawyer reached that position and could go no further.

 

[Chris C]

Isn't the Italian system a system where you have to prove that you're innocent? One of the jurists claimed that she voted guilty because she thought there was a possibility (not probability as in the American system) of guilt.

However, I would hope the Italian system has the responsibility to use REAL evidence and plausible theories. Seems that the Italian system is only as good as the prosecutor is sane and honest.

I may be full of it, I don't know the Italian system that well (and hope to never know it)

I'm sure the juror voted that way because of that. However, its my understanding that you are Innocent until proven guilty even in Italy.

 

[LondonJohn]

No Halides1, the water is NOT fine. You have a couple of posters who purposely go out of their way to incite anyone who disagrees with them, in order to get them banned or suspended. Even those who don't use those tactics, seem to be perfectly content to allow others to continue to do so without speaking up. If that is what you call a civil competition among ideas, you are being absolutely disingenuous.

Hmmm, strong stuff. And quite accusatory. Care to name these agitators, who - according to you - cleverly incite other posters into launching unpleasant personal attacks...?

Oh, and welcome, Maya C. In answer to one of your points, I would hope that everyone who believes in the possibility of a wrongful conviction for Knox and Sollecito also has the utmost sympathy and respect for the Kercher family. I have never, ever, understood why some people have sought to make these two positions out to be mutually exclusive; I'd hope that the Kerchers would like to see the correct application of justice in the sad and horrible death of their daughter/sister.

 

[LondonJohn]

About the lawyer/window photo, I have only seen one photo. Are there photos of how the lawyer reached that position, as well as photos showing him reaching the sill of Filomena's window and gaining entry? I don't find that one photo proof of anything other than the lawyer reached that position and could go no further.

But when you say "could go no further", the window and house were - I believe - a sealed crime scene at the time of this demonstration. If so, it would have been unlawful for anyone to attempt to enter the house via that window, not to mention the fact that it would have entailed re-breaking the window. It looks to me as though this demonstration was merely intended to illustrate that it was entirely possible to access the upper window sill by standing on the grill of the window below.

 

[Katody Matrass]

The argument that it is impossible to get to that window is a bit of a red herring originating from colpevolisti circles that try to be holier then the Pope.

In fact Massei never argues it, and Micheli in Guede's sentencing report admits:

In fact, this court believes that to enter that window you would not really need to be Spiderman, as the Tribunale per il Riesame claims in its hypothesis: it requires a man physically agile, as certainly Guede was, and certainly as are the burglars who visit the apartments of people at night.

 

[Chris C]

Hi Chris C,
I want to work on a project where in I can have links to ALL the that Rudy Guede has said and also his trial testimony too.
You seem to have a lot of info on RG, so can you post any links that you might have saved already?
Thanks, RWVBWL

You should look through PMF and Perugia Shock. There are also news articles on the German confessions. I even found one earlier where the italian had brown hair. Also the full translated skype conversation. Not the partial one.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38

You should read through Rudy's Diary. I'll post a few excerpts

(page 17)Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.

(page 18, 19) talks about him and meredith searching inside the house and outside for someone breaking in. They where looking for meredith's missing money.

.... (page 20) He was a male, he was Italian because he insulted me and had no foreign accent. He had the knife in his hand and he tried to get me. I tried to shield myself with my hand but it was a sharp knife. Only brushing against me, it made small but deep cuts. Like a scalpel, it only needs to brush against you and it cuts.

(where is Knox in this scenario? Sure doesn't sound like the knife the prosecution has.)

 

[Maya C]

Hello London John and thanks for the welcome.

I'm going to have to go back and do some research. I thought that demonstration was approved by the court and that at least Giulia Bongiorno was present, but I may be wrong. That happened some time ago and the older I get, the sooner the train of thought leaves the station. I wonder though, if there are more photos than the one I have seen.

 

[piktor]

About the lawyer/window photo, I have only seen one photo. Are there photos of how the lawyer reached that position, as well as photos showing him reaching the sill of Filomena's window and gaining entry? I don't find that one photo proof of anything other than the lawyer reached that position and could go no further.

He most definitely could have gone onto the window's tiny ledge.

He would have created one big mess of scrapes on the chalky wall with his shoes and knees, though.

Then, the little matter of actually getting into the room and cast off zero evidence from the chalky wall, zero evidence of pebbles, grass, twigs, leaves from the grassy, leafy ground below. Zero scrapes on the narrow window ledge, zero glass shards pushed over the window ledge onto the ground below, zero smudges of any sort in Filomena's room. Zero fibers, zero fingerprints, zero palm prints.

Even though all this scaling exertion was done at night.