Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

Anders Lindman said:
Ok, then my guess was wrong. But notice that the idea with diagonal cuts being a part of the original design of the towers is just one example of how it could have been done.
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No it is not how it could be doen, it is an example of failed ideas.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Ok, then my guess was wrong. But notice that the idea with diagonal cuts being a part of the original design of the towers is just one example of how it could have been done.
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And none of the thousands of people involved; designers, suppliers , construction crew and inspectors noticed!

You are a no-planer. By this, you have demonstrated the inability to judge evidence and logic.
 
Anders Lindman said:
But wouldn't more work and care have to be put into the job to make clean cuts? I can imagine that the steel workers cut those columns without thinking too much about how tidy the cuts got.
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Not really. Putting aside the picture you posted was not that close. If you turn-up the O2 the slag gets push further away. You also don't know if these cuts were done with a lance.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I'm just throwing out some hypotheses. I'm too lazy to do much research myself.
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Should we have different membership classifications at JREF? Anders' would have an honorary dunce cap in the upper corner along with his font color permanently set to white.
 
Anders Lindman said:
My theory is that there were explosives going off in the basements of the towers around 10 seconds before the start of the collapse.
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And yet, nobody in the area reported hearing those explosions, none of the seismographs picked up on them, and none of the firefighters in the lobby heard them.

Hush-A-Boom?

And yet, the collapse still began at the points of impact.
 
TruthersLie said:
the debris pile was much larger than the footprint 800% larger. with a debris pile and collapse zone that much larger, it is NOT its own footprint.
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Yes it was 800% larger, but was there the same density of debris all over this 800% larger area? No there was not the same density. The amount of debris diminishes outward.

Let me ask you a question. How many WTC 1 or 2 tower core elements struck adjacent buildings?
 
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Java Man said:
Yes it was 800% larger, but was there the same density of debris all over this 800% larger area? No it there as not the same density. The amount of debris diminishes outward.

Let me ask you a question. How many WTC 1 or 2 tower core elements struck adjacent buildings?
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never mind
 
http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

BigAl said:
Yup. None of them are the detonation of demolition explosives.
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Beg your pardon? Didn't you claim there were no eyewitness reports?

Are you only a credible eyewitness if you're a demolition expert? What about the people who were burned and/or thrown to the floor by the impact? Do you need to be a demolition expert in order to describe the experience of being burned and thrown to the floor by a loud explosion in the basement?
 
ergo said:
http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html




Beg your pardon? Didn't you claim there were no eyewitness reports?

Are you only a credible eyewitness if you're a demolition expert? What about the people who were burned and/or thrown to the floor by the impact? Do you need to be a demolition expert in order to describe the experience of being burned and thrown to the floor by a loud explosion in the basement?
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Demolition explosives don't burn. Any doctor can tell the difference between blast injuries and burn injuries. There are no blast injuries in the records of all the bodies examined and victims treated on 9/11.

There were no injuries or deaths with symptoms consistent with man-made explosions. There are lots of injuries consistent with burns caused by of jet fuel.

There were no eyewitnesses reports of noises
consistent in timing, loudness or brisance
with man-made demolition. If you can't name
an eyewitness, they don't exist.

When considered with all the evidence and
eyewitness accounts and the tabulation of
the causes of death and types of injuries,
the most likely explanation for the lack of
barotrauma is the absence of man-made
explosives st WTC on 9/11.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I'm actually learning a lot by posting about ideas that I think are plausible. But it's not my intent to spam the forum. I will slow down a bit for a while.
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So, despite the fact that your ideas are born of pure ignorance, lack of plausibility, physically impossible, and plain old batcrap crazy, you still think they have merit?

Troll over at LCF. They love your kind over there.
 
BigAl said:
There were no eyewitnesses reports of noises
consistent in timing, loudness or brisance
with man-made demolition. If you can't name
an eyewitness, they don't exist.

When considered with all the evidence and
eyewitness accounts and the tabulation of
the causes of death and types of injuries,
the most likely explanation for the lack of
barotrauma is the absence of man-made
explosives st WTC on 9/11.
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Did you cut and paste this from somewhere Al? Hence the stanzas rather than paragraphs?

Anyway, here's where your source is wrong again. From the same link, http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html :

Captain Dennis Tardio – WTC survivor. Engine 7 FDNY
Firefighter Patrick Zoda – WTC survivor. Engine 7 FDNY

* Documentary film, 9/11 by Jules and Gedeon Naudet recorded 9/11/01:

Tardio: What do we do? We made it outside. We made it about a block.
Zoda: We made it at least two blocks.
Tardio: Two blocks.
Zoda: And we started running
Tardio: Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop.
Zoda: Floor by floor, it started poppin’ out.
Tardio: It was like, it was if, it was as if they had detonators.
Zoda: Yeah, detonators.
Tardio: You know, as if they were plannin' to take down a building. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Zoda: All the way down. I was watchin’ it and running. And then you just saw this cloud of ◊◊◊◊ chasing, chasing you down." video segment at 47:35 of the 89 minute version of Loose Change 2nd Edition.
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Captain Karin DeShore – WTC survivor. Battalion 46, FDNY.
Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.

I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosions occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion. I don't know if we are all going to be safe here. I told them I can't force you, but I don't know if we are going to be safe here. I'm going to try to get as far away from this building as possible." [Editor's note: The North Tower collapsed shortly thereafter.] http://graphics8.nytimes.com
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EMT Patricia Ondrovic – WTC survivor. Emergency Medical Technician (EMT-D), Battalion 8, FDNY.

* Interviewed by Killtown 2/10/06: Regarding her actions immediately following the collapse of the first tower, WTC 2

Patricia Ondrovic: I tried to run into the lobby of 6 World Trade, but there were federal police -- maybe 4 to 6 of them -- standing in the open doorways. As I tried to run in, they wouldn't let me, waving me out, telling me "you can't come in here, keep running." As I turned to start running west again, I saw a series of flashes around the ceiling of the lobby all going off one-by-one like the X-mass lights that "chase" in pattern. I think I started running faster at that point.

KT: Did you hear any "popping" sounds when each of these flashes in the WTC 6 lobby were going off?

Patricia Ondrovic: Yes, that part was like a movie. The pops were at the same time as the flashes.

KT: Can you estimate either how many flashes you saw or how many of these "pops" you heard inside this lobby?

Patricia Ondrovic: At least 6 before I was turned away. ...

KT: Did you think these explosions in the lobby were maybe lights popping out as in an electrical surge, or did they seem more like explosives going off in a timed manner?

Patricia Ondrovic: I immediately got the impression they were timed explosives. I have never thought they were anything else, not then, not now.

KT: Have you ever seen a building being demolished with explosives on TV and was the flashes and pops similar to that?

Patricia Ondrovic: It did remind me of just that. I had seen something on a Las Vegas casino being demolished and that's what it reminded me of.

KT: Can you try to describe what these "pops" you heard sounded like?

Patricia Ondrovic: They sounded like light bulbs popping, but there were no light fixtures where the explosions were coming from. The sound was not all that loud. ...

KT: At the time, who did you think planted these explosives in there?

Patricia Ondrovic: I didn't have any notions of where to put blame per se, but I remember thinking that it was possibly the same organization who tried to blow up the building back in 1993. I figured they came back to finish the job. At the time I was running, I remember thinking that "they" wired the whole area. At the time I wasn't aware that what made the towers catch fire were passenger jets crashing. I thought the buildings had bombs planted to go off that day. The idea of not only one passenger jet, but two took me a while to comprehend -- not to mention the pentagon as well. http://killtown.blogspot.com
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Daniel Rivera – WTC survivor. Paramedic, Battalion 31, Station 36, FDNY, Brooklyn.

* Statement recorded by FDNY 10/31/01: Paramedic Rivera arrived at the WTC prior to the second airplane impact. "I kept on walking close to the South Tower and that's when that building collapsed.

Q: How did you know that it [the South Tower] was coming down?

Paramedic Rivera: That noise. It was noise.

Q:. What did you hear? What did you see?

Paramedic Rivera: It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was---do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'? That's exactly what--because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down." http://graphics8.nytimes.com
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Jeff Birnbaum – WTC survivor. President of Broadway Electric Supply. Also 23 years of experience as a Fire Chief and EMT for Pt. Lookout-Lido Beach on Long Island, NY."When we got to about 50 ft from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go. The way I see it, it had to be the rivets. The building let go, there was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down.

"I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, 'What the F_____?' I honestly thought it was Hollywood." ...

"Who thought those towers would come down? I thought we would be fighting these fires for a week or two chasing them around the buildings. When the first one came down it was like, 'Wow!' But the second one? And for it to come down, and there to be nothing left except for a plume of smoke."
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Firefighter Edward Cachia – WTC survivor. Engine 53, FDNY.

* Statement recorded by FDNY 12/6/01: "As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down." http://graphics8.nytimes.com/
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Firefighter Keith Murphy – WTC survivor. Engine 47, FDNY.
We are in the lobby waiting for the elevator. ... We are standing there and the first thing that happened, which I still think is strange to me, the lights went out. Completely pitch black. ...

I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard a distant boom boom boom, sounded like explosions. I don't know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. ... I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you. It sounded like nothing I had ever heard in my life, but it didn't sound good. All of a sudden I could feel the floor started to shake and sway. We were being thrown like literally off our feet, side to side, getting banged around and then a tremendous wind started to happen. It probably lasted maybe 15 seconds. It seemed like a hurricane force wind. It would blow you off your feet and smoke and debris and more things started falling."
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Firefighter Thomas Turilli – WTC survivor. Engine 47, FDNY.
The door closed, they went up, and it just seemed a couple seconds and all of a sudden you just heard like it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came and my officer just actually took all of us and just threw us down on the ground and kind of just jumped on top of us, laid on top of us. There were rocks falling and all that. The lights were still on at that point and all of a sudden the lights went out and you couldn't see anything." http://graphics8.nytimes.com [Editor's note: At this point WTC2 (South Tower) began to collapse.]
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Gregory Reszka – WTC survivor. WTC North Tower, 82nd floor.

* Video interview on ABC 9/11/01:

Gregory Reszka: I was up in my office on the Northwest corner of the 82nd floor. I heard a noise like a sonic boom, almost, and then a blast. The building swayed. It shook a little bit. I saw papers coming fly out of the middle of the building and then we went to the staircase to try to get down. ...
We made it all the way downstairs. And then when we were just about to come out of the building, there was another blast and all the lights went out. And this is what happened then.

Interviewer: The glass came down?

Gregory Reszka: We didn't see. We were still inside the building. All we heard was a big blast and a whole volume of air moved. And we came out through the subway.
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Brian Clark – WTC survivor. Manager at Euro Brokers, WTC South Tower, 84th floor.

* Interviewed in the documentary film Zero: An Investigation Into 9/11 10/26/07:

"On September 11, 2001, I was employed by a company called Euro Brokers and our offices were on the 84th floor of the South Tower, which was the second building to be hit that day with an airplane. And I was working away at my computer and at 8:46 in the morning, there was this loud BOOM. ...

Two or three minutes later I started talking with one fellow named Bobby Call ... and as he was telling me this -- BOOM BOOM -- this double explosion and our building shook. ... Everything just exploded in our room. Now we're on the 84th floor. What I didn't know at the time was that the second plane had hit six floors below us on the 78th floor. ... We dusted ourselves off and I said, "Come on. Let's go home." ...

When I looked down there, I didn't see flames. I just sensed that it was the right thing to go and try and test it. We would go as far as we could until we were stopped by flames. And when we came to the 78th floor, the last layer was standing, but it was cracked, and there were flames licking up the other side of the wall, like this. It wasn't a roaring inferno. I sensed that the flames were maybe starved for oxygen right there, you know, in the interior. We kept going and we got onto the 74th floor, when we got down that far, normal conditions -- the lights were on, fresh air was coming up from below. ...

My ears were hearing loud explosions at ground level. Very mysterious. Explosions that seemed to be at ground level as opposed to high in the air."
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