Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[leftysergeant]

They are not in conflict with one another. One without the other wouldn't be America.

Bull flops. If shrieking monkeys like Geller and Breitbart and Beck are allowed to raise the feeble minded against something like Park 51, they can also be counted on to raise them against atheists, agnostics, Baha'is or whoever.

 

[Chaos]

And ignorance of the law is no excuse, or defense. On the other hand the fact remains that everyone doesn't and can't be expected to read and understand the thousands of pages of laws and regulations in our life. Likewise, people often hear sound bites and form opinions without knowing or researching all the facts. Random polls catch people that haven't bothered to get all the facts and have an opinion based on partial or inaccurate information. Thus their response could legitimately based on ignorance and not necessarily outright bigotry.

I´m not talking about "thousands of pages of laws and regulations".

Here: "Park51, originally named Cordoba House and controversially referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned 13-story Islamic community center and mosque to be located about two blocks from the World Trade Center site[5][6] in Lower Manhattan."

This incredibly arcane and well-hidden secret can be revealed by the following awfully complicated and time-consuming procedure:
Go to "en.wikipedia.org".
Type "ground zero mosque" into wikipedia´s search window.

This took me maybe 20 seconds... call it one or two minutes if you´re a really slow typer or have bad internet access.

So, no excuse for bigotry.

 

[Neally]

I´m not talking about "thousands of pages of laws and regulations".


This took me maybe 20 seconds... call it one or two minutes if you´re a really slow typer or have bad internet access.

So, no excuse for bigotry.

But there is an excuse for ignorance. Penn & Teller, and others have done a bit on getting people to sign a petition banning the dangerous substance "dihydrogen monoxide". You'd think before actually signing something people would attempt to get all the facts, after all they could have typed it into Wikipedia and gotten the facts, right? Except that you can't do that when someone is standing in front of you, nor can you gather the facts when someone is polling you on the phone.

Neither situation exists for not knowing all the laws and regulations that may affect you, so what's your excuse for not knowing everything about every law?

 

[Cicero]

So what we have here is a donut of ignorance with a creamy center of bigotry, with sprinkles of people like Cicero and BAC who just reflexively line up where the coach tells them.

Don't blame me because the coach of your team is sending in mixed signals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2P2innj12c


Not to mention your assistant coaches who oppose the mosque location:

Dr. Howie Dean, Rep. Mike McMahon, Rep. Tim Bishop, Rep. Steve Israel
Harry Reid, and Rep. Michael Arcuri

 

[Cicero]

I don't think so, but how does Time's agenda have any effect on the results of the poll?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? In the same way a Phillip Morris poll on smoking would affect the results of the poll.

 

[Cicero]

Here:

Here: "Park51, originally named Cordoba House and controversially referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned 13-story Islamic community center and mosque to be located about two blocks from the World Trade Center site[5][6] in Lower Manhattan."

The fact that it's referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque" when it is fact not a mosque nor being built at Ground Zero is proof of that.

It would appear your wiki wiki source is in conflict with your fellow "bigot" spreader. 70% people in the TIME's poll don't appear to have the corner on "ignorance" on the subject.

So, no excuse for bigotry.

No need to excuse something that isn't present.

 

[Chaos]

It would appear your wiki wiki source is in conflict with your fellow "bigot" spreader. 70% people in the TIME's poll don't appear to have the corner on "ignorance" on the subject.

The "Ground Zero mosque" is not, in fact, a mosque on Ground Zero. No amount of obfuscation on your part is going to change that.

No need to excuse something that isn't present.

We are still waiting for a non-bigotted reason to oppose the project. And you still refuse to deliver it.

 

[Cicero]

The "Ground Zero mosque" is not, in fact, a mosque on Ground Zero. No amount of obfuscation on your part is going to change that.

Now that's odd. You referred "ignorant" folks to look up your wiki wiki source where one could be educated about the facts. Now you say your own source is in error. Can you make up your mind?

We are still waiting for a non-bigotted reason to oppose the project. And you still refuse to deliver it.

It has already been presented. Too bad if you can't accept it.

 

[Chaos]

Now that's odd. You referred "ignorant" folks to look up your wiki wiki source where one could be educated about the facts. Now you say your own source is in error. Can you make up your mind?

The source is not in error. The "Ground Zero Mosque" is not a mosque on Ground Zero because it is not, in fact, on Ground Zero.

It has already been presented. Too bad if you can't accept it.

Where is it, then? I only see repeated, unsupported claims that people who clearly display bigotted behavior are not bigots.

 

[Neally]

Where is it, then? I only see repeated, unsupported claims that people who clearly display bigotted behavior are not bigots.

Every person that breaks the law is not necessarily an anarchist. They could simply be ignorant of the details of the law. Likewise, every person polled that opposes the mosque isn't necessarily a bigot as they may not have the correct information. In fact, to assume such, is in itself a form of prejudice or bigotry.

 

[johnny karate]

Every person that breaks the law is not necessarily an anarchist. They could simply be ignorant of the details of the law. Likewise, every person polled that opposes the mosque isn't necessarily a bigot as they may not have the correct information. In fact, to assume such, is in itself a form of prejudice or bigotry.

Awesome. Then what, in fact, is a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51. Besides stupidity, I mean. Cicero took a run at this question, but all he managed was a poll question that itself was based on an unsubstantiated claim. When asked to actually substantiate the claim, Cicero tucked his tail and ran away.

Perhaps you can do better?

 

[Chaos]

Every person that breaks the law is not necessarily an anarchist.

Sure. But every person who takes an action that breaks the law has broken the law, and no amount on spurious talk can change that.

They could simply be ignorant of the details of the law. Likewise, every person polled that opposes the mosque isn't necessarily a bigot as they may not have the correct information. In fact, to assume such, is in itself a form of prejudice or bigotry.

That won´t fly, either.

Polls have a "Don´t know/No opinion" option. People who were ignorant about what Park 51 is could have picked that option.

 

[jakesteele]

One thing in this controversy that I am wondering about is why exactly do muslims want to build a mosque in that particular location? Is it because they got a great deal on the real estate or do they want to rub salt in the wound or what?

 

[johnny karate]

One thing in this controversy that I am wondering about is why exactly do muslims want to build a mosque in that particular location? Is it because they got a great deal on the real estate or do they want to rub salt in the wound or what?

Does anyone have to have a reason to engage in a perfectly lawful, Constitutionally-protected activity?

And why would an Islamic community center two blocks away from Ground Zero be "rubbing salt in the wound"?

 

[leftysergeant]

One thing in this controversy that I am wondering about is why exactly do muslims want to build a mosque in that particular location?

How easy is it to find a building lot in Manhattan? I am betting that there is a bit of competition.

You might also have noticed that they already had a place of worship and some community gathering facilities in the area. If you are a community of faith in Manhattan, does it make any sense to build in Hoboken?

Is it because they got a great deal on the real estate...

Obviously. It is an empty, damaged building now.

... or do they want to rub salt in the wound or what?

Have you read the part about the museum included in the project? Are you aware that Rauf is a Sufi? These people are frequently targets of Wahabi violence. Part of their mission is to reconcile Muslim and Christian interests and make peace between them to the extent that it is possible.

It appears to me that this would not be an issue were it not for low-lifes like Breitbart and his shrieking harpy Geller making it an issue to restore some of Breitbart's sewage-dipped credibility as a joiurnalist and demagogue. That is salt in the wound.

 

[Neally]

Awesome. Then what, in fact, is a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51. Besides stupidity, I mean.

Perhaps you can do better?

Already answered and you acknowledged it-- stupidity, or as I stated, "ignorance". Why do you keep asking a question that was already answered?

That won´t fly, either.
Polls have a "Don´t know/No opinion" option. People who were ignorant about what Park 51 is could have picked that option.

Works great if you are absolutely blank on the issue, not so much if you have facts/partial information that you don't know is not correct. Why are you so rabid to label entire groups of people as "bigots" when clearly they could have answered based on unknown, false information?

Sure. But every person who takes an action that breaks the law has broken the law, and no amount on spurious talk can change that.

Correct, but we are talking about what's behind it. A person can break the law deliberately or by accident. A person could have answered the poll out of bigotry or ignorance.

 

[Taarkin]

Works great if you are absolutely blank on the issue, not so much if you have facts/partial information that you don't know is not correct. Why are you so rabid to label entire groups of people as "bigots" when clearly they could have answered based on unknown, false information?

They're not mutually exclusive. "I don't want any Jews living near me because they will steal my childrens' blood to make matzo bread" is a bigoted opinion even though it's based on ignorance/misinformation. Moreover, pre-existing bigotry will make one more eager to wallow in their ignorance/misinformation.

 

[leftysergeant]

Works great if you are absolutely blank on the issue, not so much if you have facts/partial information that you don't know is not correct. Why are you so rabid to label entire groups of people as "bigots" when clearly they could have answered based on unknown, false information?

Persons who form an unfavorable opinion about groups of people based on misperceptions or acceptance of slanderous propoganda as the truth, without bothering to learn the truth, are pretty much, by definition, bigots.

Damned ignorant bigots at that.

You see a lot of them standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Geller and Breitbart shrieking innanities at the mosque.

 

[Neally]

They're not mutually exclusive. "I don't want any Jews living near me because they will steal my childrens' blood to make matzo bread" is a bigoted opinion even though it's based on ignorance/misinformation.

They're not one and the same either. Hypothetically, if a person didn't know better, and thought the imam wanting to open the GZ mosque was part of the radical Muslims, he could object to the building of the center fearing that other radicals would be attracted there. A non-bigoted response due to ignorance. On the other hand, assuming all imams are radicals is bigoted.

Persons who form an unfavorable opinion about groups of people based on misperceptions or acceptance of slanderous propoganda as the truth, without bothering to learn the truth, are pretty much, by definition, bigots.

Damned ignorant bigots at that.

Do tell. Coming from someone that considers all Tea Party supporters "morons".

 

[leftysergeant]

Do tell. Coming from someone that considers all Tea Party supporters "morons".

I do know that they are stupid enough to think that the current mess can be fixed without raising taxes on those who benefited most from the stupidity of the ecconomic policies of the GOP over the last thrity years.

Dim bulbs, the lot of them.