Seismic event indicating explosion at WTC

[uke2se]

I will stay on topic in this thread, but since you asked it before I will answer it. Yes, I believe the official version is possible. I keep an open mind and, to use a term GWB used, have all options on the table.

Good. You think the official version is possible, and you think your version is possible. Let's apply Occam's razor.

Your version:

- Requires a massive conspiracy, including TV network personnel from tech staff and up to head of networks, first responders at the scene, including police and firemen who lost co-workers at ground zero, airlines who covered up the (not) missing planes, including ground crew, air crew and airport personnel, the families of the victims aboard the (not) missing aircraft, air traffic controllers in multiple airports, not to mention all the military and government personnel.

- Requires technology that doesn't officially exist, such as laterally burning thermite that can burn through massive steel columns, and direct edit tv equipment which can seamlessly impose images on live broadcast.

- Requires all the world's leading engineering, architect and demolition experts (with the exception of a handful twoofers) to have missed all the evidence and fumbled the science, while a bunch of people on the internet managed to figure it out.

Official version:

- Requires the existence of misguided religious fanatics willing to die for their faith.

- Requires that science that has been well known for a couple of hundred years actually works.

- Requires people being able to make mistakes.

I'd say Occam favors the latter version. Do you disagree?

 

[Anders Lindman]

The time difference of 5 seconds is not much, but check this out: Time for the plane hitting the South Tower according to the official 9/11 commission report: 9:03:11 (see: http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Ch9.htm ) and the origin time for the plane hitting the South Tower according to the seismic record: 09:02:54 (see: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html ).

That's a whopping 17 seconds time difference. Could it be because inaccuracy in time measurement at the PAL station? Nope. Margins of error stated: +/- 2 seconds.

While you're at it, also check out the size of the seismic event for the collapse of WTC 7: 0.6 on the Richter scale, smaller than even the miniscule events of the plane impacts (0.7 and 0.9) So how could the collapses of the WTC towers produce such huge seismic events in contrast to WTC 7? See how tiny the seismic events for the plane impacts are in the image below, and remember that the collapse of WTC 7 produced an even smaller seismic event:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/wtc_pal_ehe_500.gif

Edited by LashL: 

Removed hotlinked image. Please see Rule 5.

 

[beachnut]

The time difference of 5 seconds is not much, but check this out: Time for the plane hitting the South Tower according to the official 9/11 commission report: 9:03:11 (see: http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/911/report/911Report_Ch9.htm ) and the origin time for the plane hitting the South Tower according to the seismic record: 09:02:54 (see: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_wtc.html ).

That's a whopping 17 seconds time difference. Could it be because inaccuracy in time measurement at the PAL station? Nope. Margins of error stated: +/- 2 seconds.

While you're at it, also check out the size of the seismic event for the collapse of WTC 7: 0.6 on the Richter scale, smaller than even the miniscule events of the plane impacts (0.7 and 0.9) So how could the collapses of the WTC towers produce such huge seismic events in contrast to WTC 7? See how tiny the seismic events for the plane impacts are in the image below, and remember that the collapse of WTC 7 produced an even smaller seismic event:

Aircraft impacts, 1300 and 2000 pounds of TNT kinetic energy events.

WTC towers, over 130 TONS of TNT kinetic energy events, each!

Why not try to do WTC7 for yourself. E=mgh. Good luck.

WTC7 took a long time to collapse. The penthouse fell in 8 seconds or so before the facade, this would keep the overall amplitude lower; you think?

Towers collapsing more than 130 times bigger than the impacts.


No evidence of thermite yet? Are you holding out?

 

[Reactor drone]

Yes absolutely. I'm not an expert on seismology. But that doesn't make my initial claim invalid. Even the shape of the recorded seismic event is consistent with an explosion (plus collapse). If there was only a collapse without explosion, it would have looked more like this:

[qimg]http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9045/wtcs7.png[/qimg]

Given that you don't think there were any explosives used in WTC7 with its natural collapse signature, how does the timing of the WTC7 event fit in relative to the timing of the WTC1 and 2 collapses?

 

[Anders Lindman]

WTC7 took a long time to collapse.

So did the WTC towers. Sure, they were much bigger, but think about how much the plane impacts shook the ground. Not very much. The collapse of the WTC 7 produced an even smaller seismic event, even when it was thousands of tons of steel and concrete that fell vertically towards the ground. This was because a collapse of a building is not at all like an earthquake for example which is a short, sharp slip-like event.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Given that you don't think there were any explosives used in WTC7 with its natural collapse signature, how does the timing of the WTC7 event fit in relative to the timing of the WTC1 and 2 collapses?

I haven't checked the timing of the seismic event for WTC 7. The magnitude of the seismic event for the collapse of WTC 7 however was tiny for being thousands of tons of steel and concrete smashing into the ground. The reason was because the collapse was a very slow event that did not produce any sharp seismic spikes. The WTC towers on the other hand did produce very sharp spikes because of in addition to the slow collapses there were huge explosions triggered in the basements prior to the collapses.

 

[Anders Lindman]

WTC towers, over 130 TONS of TNT kinetic energy events, each!

It's not accurate to only look at the energy released when it comes to seismic events. It's the sharpness, the shortness or what to call it, that is the most determining factor. Compare with firing a gun. How many decibel will the bang produce? Compare that to taking out the gunpowder and igniting it. That would only produce a puny 'pfffffs' sound, with very low signal on the decibel scale, even though the amount of energy released is pretty much the same in both cases.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Charges that blow in!!! LOL, stundied!!!

Sorry for the off topic reply, but I think it's important to show that this is not so far-fetched as it first might seem. Simply rig the explosions like this:

When the explosives are triggered the upper part breaks off and flies out to the left (indicating the outside of the building) and the lower part bends inwards to the right (representing the inside of the building).

 

[tsig]

I just received information confirming a travel time for the seismic wave from the WTC to the PAL station of 17 +/- 3 seconds. So which part of my original post are you not clear about?

Did you receive that info psychically or physically? If you got it by physical means then cite please?

 

[Sabretooth]

Sorry for the off topic reply, but I think it's important to show that this is not so far-fetched as it first might seem. Simply rig the explosions like this:

[qimg]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8371/sh2u.gif[/qimg]

When the explosives are triggered the upper part breaks off and flies out to the left (indicating the outside of the building) and the lower part bends inwards to the right (representing the inside of the building).

[qimg]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3033/id2x.gif[/qimg]

Great. Another NPTer that doesn't understand physics...

 

[T.A.M.]

Great. Another NPTer that doesn't understand physics...

Do any of them?

TAM

 

[Mel Odious]

Sorry for the off topic reply, but I think it's important to show that this is not so far-fetched as it first might seem. Simply rig the explosions like this:

[qimg]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8371/sh2u.gif[/qimg]

When the explosives are triggered the upper part breaks off and flies out to the left (indicating the outside of the building) and the lower part bends inwards to the right (representing the inside of the building).

[qimg]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3033/id2x.gif[/qimg]

What caused the aluminum cladding to bend inward like that?

Just asking questions!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

What caused the aluminum cladding to bend inward like that?

[fnord]
A plane hit it.

Don't tell the stupid person though, it gets him jumpy.
[/fnord]

 

[Dog Town]

Do any of them?

TAM

NO!

 

[Lak]

But already the start of the collapse would have sent seismic waves (heck, even the plane impacts were registered at the PAL station albeit only as very tiny events), and they put origin time at the very start of the first tiny signal arriving, which means the origin time 9:59:04 indicates the start of the collapse. Compare with the North Tower (origin time 10:28:31), look at the arrow pointing at the beginning in the below picture. That's the very first signal arriving at PAL, i.e. wave components from the start of the collapse.

[qimg]http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6177/72044115.gif[/qimg]

Don't you understand what you read ? "the arrow pointing at the beginning" shows "computed origin time". The first signal arrives at PAL 17s later.

The video I posted shows the beginning of the collapse at precisely 9:58:59.
For the other tower, this video puts the beginning of the collapse at precisely 10:28:23 .

So... We have visual evidence, for both towers, that puts the beginning of the collapse a few seconds before the "computed origin time" from seismic data. Could you explain, please, how these seismic recordings can be a clue of bombs going off to initiate the collapses ?

Did you notice that one of the sources you used on the 1st page (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/freefall.html) agrees with me, indicating that 10:28:31 is the time when "Rubble starts to hit the ground" ?

 

[TruthersLie]

I know there was a power outage in one of the towers the days just before 9/11. They could have rigged the floors then. The other tower I don't know.

<facepalm>
The stupid woo is strong in this one.

Have you ever done any CD work? Can you tell me how many people it would take to rig a few ONE ACRE floors for CD?

(it would take more than a weekend, unless you have the A team, or maybe the full crew (and a lot more) from Construction intervention.

 

[TruthersLie]

Ok, origin time means the time at the source, in this case at the WTC.

The origin time according to the seismic recording at PAL for the South Tower is 9:59:04 +/- 1 second. Yet the official 9/11 commission report states that the time for the start of the collapse of the South Tower was: 9:58:59. Isn't that an inconsistency? Why 5 seconds time difference?

because the 911CR is a political report and not a scientific document. As such, they are not as accurate as they could be.

They also state that the towers collapsed in 11 to 13 seconds (which is obviously wrong...) Why? Oh because it is a political report and not a scientific/engineering one.

 

[alienentity]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6343867&postcount=309

Movement of WTC 1 begins in close correlation to the shake, along with numerous other visible tower events.

Suggest any discussion is performed on the referenced thread, rather than here.

Oh.My.God.
F2 is buying into this woo. He is actually feeding on it. Yuk!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ok. I'll stick to the seismic stuff in this thread.

You can't. You've already admitted that you don't have the qualifications for it.

Yes absolutely. I'm not an expert on seismology.

You can't keep playing the game after you've already lost.

 

[alienentity]

-Insert random guesswork and faulty interpretation here -

No point responding to any of your nonsense Anders, just wanted to remark that you started out with a crushingly ignorant viewpoint, and a truly stupid theory (huge explosions which cannot be heard on any video/audio!?! I mean, that's a really, really dumb idea )
You get corrected very patiently by some pretty well informed people, you backtrack and then you pretend that your original jelly-brained idea still holds?

Just take your lumps, dude. You have been badly pwned and you have no business making grandiose declarations about anything regarding seismic events on 9/11. You don't know what you're talking about.

But I think you may have found a strange ally in Femr2, so congratulations. Woo is a powerful attractive force...to other woo purveyors, that is.