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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Who said I spent 10 days doing actual research?

Nobody?
I feel fairly certain that nobody here is likely to accuse you of spending any amount of time doing any research...


And here are some more writings from Peter, Paul, and Luke describing the danger and difficulty of preaching in those times. Certainly conditions ripe for being martyred in the Roman Empire.

1 Peter 4: 12-19
1 Peter 5: 8-9
1 Peter 2: 19-21
1 Peter 4: 1-4

Phil 1: 29-30
Thesalonians 3: 7-8
Acts 22: 4-5
Romans 5: 3-4
1 Cor 4: 12-14

Oh, my flying spaghetti monster. Using the Bible to prove the Bible... What an innovative strategy! It's not like it was the exact reproach made to you in the post you were pretending to refute!
 
I'm certain that somewhere upthread, you were reminded that using the NT to prove the veracity of the NT is what's called "circular reasoning", Doc. This is a fallacy, and as such, is not evidence.
 
Who said I spent 10 days doing actual research?

And here are some more writings from Peter, Paul, and Luke describing the danger and difficulty of preaching in those times. Certainly conditions ripe for being martyred in the Roman Empire.

1 Peter 4: 12-19
1 Peter 5: 8-9
1 Peter 2: 19-21
1 Peter 4: 1-4

Phil 1: 29-30
Thesalonians 3: 7-8
Acts 22: 4-5
Romans 5: 3-4
1 Cor 4: 11-13

Nice one, DOC, you big tease! Now, where's the real fruits of your research?
 
I'm certain that somewhere upthread, you were reminded that using the NT to prove the veracity of the NT is what's called "circular reasoning", Doc. This is a fallacy, and as such, is not evidence.


I'm fairly certain of that too.


I'm saying that THE NEW TESTAMENT CANNOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE THAT THE NEW TESTAMENT IS TRUE.

Got that yet? "Because it says so" is not evidence.

All the events that take place in Moby-Dick were written about by Herman Melville. By your reasoning that is evidence that they are true.
 
Or any, ever?


This isn't circular reasoning?


Why do you have a problem believing that writings from historical people showing that it was dangerous and difficult to preach at that time are accurate?


On what basis are you claiming that these "historical people" even existed, let alone wrote the fairytales that you are attributing to them?
 
Did you know, by the way, that I'm a great historian? Perhaps I haven't told you, but this is the truth. I know, because my mother said so in my teens. If I was good then, I must surely be great now. And mother actually know me, we have met several times. She was a teacher, so she obviously knew what she was talking about when she said I was great at history!
That's a very nice story but we all know its BS.
We all know that if you don't write embarassing things about yourself then it's not true.
 
As if anyone would quote mine Ramsay.
BTW anyone read his THE BEARING OF RECENT DISCOVERY ON THE TRUSTWORTHINESS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT recently?

He makes some interesting arguments.

Preface vii
"No one can comprehend Luke"

page 231
"Luke was all wrong about Herod, and about Quirinius"

page 235
"Luke, while desiring to be true, was guilty of an astonishing series of blunders in fact"

Page 253
"the idea of every person going to his own home to be enrolled was a pure fiction, and could not possibly have been true : it was a mere device to explain how Jesus could be born in Bethlehem of parents who lived in Nazareth : it was a false explanation of an invented occurrence: Jesus, if born at all, was born in the home of his parents."

page 273
"Luke was an incapable and untrustworthy historian"

Hey, DOC. Care to comment?
 
Evidence for the existence of these so-called "historical people"?
 
In post #15129 some biblical passages were listed that would seem to be unlikely inventions. Here are some more biblical passages from the Gospel of John that seem unlikely to be made up.

From the article: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
by Frank Turek Chapter 10 (Do We Have Eyewitness Testimony About Jesus?)
___

39. Proper identification of Caiaphas father-in-law, Annas, who was the high priest from A.D. 6... (18:13)... the appearance before Annas is believable because of the family connection and the fact that former high priests maintained great influence.

40. John's claim that the high priest knew him (18:15) seems historical; invention of this claim serves no purpose and would expose John to being discredited by the Jewish authorities.

42. Identification of a relative of Malchus (the high priest's servant who had his ear cut off) is a detail that John would not have made up (18:26); it has no theological significance and could only hurt John's credibility if he were trying to pass off fiction as the truth.

43. There are good historical reasons to believe Pilate's reluctance to deal with Jesus (18:28ff.): Pilate had to walk a fine line between keeping the Jews happy and keeping Rome happy; any civil unrest could mean his job (the Jews knew of his competing concerns when they taunted him with, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar" 19:12); the Jewish philosopher Philo records the Jews successfully pressuring Pilate in a similar way to get their demands met (To Gaius 38.301-302).

45. The Jews exclaiming We have no king but Caesar! (19:15) would not be invented given the Jewish hatred for the Romans, especially if John had been written after A.D. 70 {the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple in A.D. 70}. (This would be like New Yorkers today proclaiming "We have no king but Osama Bin Laden!")

50. After the spear was thrust into Jesus' side, out came what appeared to be blood and water (19:34). Today we know that a crucified person might have a watery fluid gather in the sac around the heart called the pericardium.12 John would not have known of this medical condition, and could not have recorded this phenomenon unless he was an eyewitness or had access to eyewitness testimony.13

51. Joseph of Arimathea (19:38), a member of the Sanhedrin who buries Jesus, is an unlikely invention (more on this in the next chapter).

52. Josephus (Antiquities 17.199) confirms that spices (19:39) were used for royal burials; this detail shows that Nicodemus was not expecting Jesus to rise from the dead, and it also demonstrates that John was not inserting later Christian faith into the text.

53. Mary Magdalene (20:1), a formerly demon-possessed woman (Luke 8:2), would not be invented as the empty tombs first witness; in fact, women in general would not be presented as witnesses in a made-up story (more on this later as well).

55. "Rabboni" (20:16), the Aramaic for "teacher," seems an authentic detail because it's another unlikely invention for a writer trying to exalt the risen Jesus.

56. Jesus stating that he is returning to "my God and your God" (20:17) does not fit with a later writer bent on creating the idea that Jesus was God.

57. One hundred fifty-three fish (21:11) is a theologically irrelevant detail, but perfectly consistent with the tendency of fisherman to want to record and then brag about large catches.

58. The fear of the disciples to ask Jesus who he was (21:12) is an unlikely concoction; it demonstrates natural human amazement at the risen Jesus and perhaps the fact that there was something different about the resurrection body.

59. The cryptic statement from Jesus about the fate of Peter is not clear enough to draw certain theological conclusions (21:18); so why would John make it up? It's another unlikely invention.

{some obvious typos were corrected}

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643
 
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That's a very nice story but we all know its BS.
We all know that if you don't write embarassing things about yourself then it's not true.

One time Helen's mother, who knows her and has called her a great adept at histrionics history, sent her to bed without any supper.
 
In post #15129 some biblical passages were listed that would seem to be unlikely inventions. Here are some more biblical passages from the Gospel of John that seem unlikely to be made up.

From the article: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
by Frank Turek Chapter 10 (Do We Have Eyewitness Testimony About Jesus?)
___

39. Proper identification of Caiaphas father-in-law, Annas, who was the high priest from A.D. 6... (18:13)... the appearance before Annas is believable because of the family connection and the fact that former high priests maintained great influence.

40. John's claim that the high priest knew him (18:15) seems historical; invention of this claim serves no purpose and would expose John to being discredited by the Jewish authorities.

42. Identification of a relative of Malchus (the high priest's servant who had his ear cut off) is a detail that John would not have made up (18:26); it has no theological significance and could only hurt John's credibility if he were trying to pass off fiction as the truth.

43. There are good historical reasons to believe Pilate=s reluctance to deal with Jesus (18:28ff.): Pilate had to walk a fine line between keeping the Jews happy and keeping Rome happy; any civil unrest could mean his job (the Jews knew of his competing concerns when they taunted him with, AIf you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar,@ 19:12); the Jewish philosopher Philo records the Jews successfully pressuring Pilate in a similar way to get their demands met (To Gaius 38.301-302).

45. The Jews exclaiming We have no king but Caesar! (19:15) would not be invented given the Jewish hatred for the Romans, especially if John had been written after A.D. 70. (This would be like New Yorkers today proclaiming "We have no king but Osama Bin Laden!")

50. After the spear was thrust into Jesus= side, out came what appeared to be blood and water (19:34). Today we know that a crucified person might have a watery fluid gather in the sac around the heart called the pericardium.12 John would not have known of this medical condition, and could not have recorded this phenomenon unless he was an eyewitness or had access to eyewitness testimony.13

51. Joseph of Arimathea (19:38), a member of the Sanhedrin who buries Jesus, is an unlikely invention (more on this in the next chapter).

52. Josephus (Antiquities 17.199) confirms that spices (19:39) were used for royal burials; this detail shows that Nicodemus was not expecting Jesus to rise from the dead, and it also demonstrates that John was not inserting later Christian faith into the text.

53. Mary Magdalene (20:1), a formerly demon-possessed woman (Luke 8:2), would not be invented as the empty tombs first witness; in fact, women in general would not be presented as witnesses in a made-up story (more on this later as well).

55. "Rabboni" (20:16), the Aramaic for "teacher," seems an authentic detail because it's another unlikely invention for a writer trying to exalt the risen Jesus.

56. Jesus stating that he is returning to "my God and your God" (20:17) does not fit with a later writer bent on creating the idea that Jesus was God.

57. One hundred fifty-three fish (21:11) is a theologically irrelevant detail, but perfectly consistent with the tendency of fisherman to want to record and then brag about large catches.

58. The fear of the disciples to ask Jesus who he was (21:12) is an unlikely concoction; it demonstrates natural human amazement at the risen Jesus and perhaps the fact that there was something different about the resurrection body.

59. The cryptic statement from Jesus about the fate of Peter is not clear enough to draw certain theological conclusions (21:18); so why would John make it up? It's another unlikely invention.

{some obvious typos were corrected}

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51643

Don't these circles make you dizzy?
 
Logical analyzation of the writings and their likelihood of being made up has nothing to do with circular reasoning.
Analysis. There's a perfectly cromulent English word, why use a made up one?

It has everything to do with circular reasoning when you are using the NT to provide evidence of the truth of the NT.
 
57. One hundred fifty-three fish (21:11) is a theologically irrelevant detail, but perfectly consistent with the tendency of fisherman to want to record and then brag about large catches.

AKA lying. LOL
 
Logical analyzation of the writings and their likelihood of being made up has nothing to do with circular reasoning.

You have homework. Go find an online resource that will define circular reasoning for you and post a link here. Then paraphrase what it is saying in your own words to show that you truly understand it.

Then go find the person who gave you an 'A' in Logic and slap them silly.
 
In post #15129 some biblical passages were listed that would seem to be unlikely inventions. Here are some more biblical passages from the Gospel of John that seem unlikely to be made up.

From the article: I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist
by Frank Turek Chapter 10 (Do We Have Eyewitness Testimony About Jesus?)
___

39. Proper identification of Caiaphas father-in-law, Annas, who was the high priest from A.D. 6... (18:13)... the appearance before Annas is believable because of the family connection and the fact that former high priests maintained great influence.
So, what extra-Biblical sources do you have that Annas a) existed and b) accepted any audience? Who says that former high preists maintained great influence? What documentation do you have that supports this idea?

40. John's claim that the high priest knew him (18:15) seems historical; invention of this claim serves no purpose and would expose John to being discredited by the Jewish authorities.
Why does it seem historical? DO you have extra-Biblical documentation that John made this claim? Or that the high preist knew John? If John didn't exist that would also explain why he wasn't discredited. So would him being a loud-mouthed fisherman who the locals thought was a crank.

42. Identification of a relative of Malchus (the high priest's servant who had his ear cut off) is a detail that John would not have made up (18:26); it has no theological significance and could only hurt John's credibility if he were trying to pass off fiction as the truth.
And your extra-Biblical evidence for this event is? Again, John could either not exist or have been a crank that no one listend to.

43. There are good historical reasons to believe Pilate's reluctance to deal with Jesus (18:28ff.): Pilate had to walk a fine line between keeping the Jews happy and keeping Rome happy; any civil unrest could mean his job (the Jews knew of his competing concerns when they taunted him with, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar" 19:12); the Jewish philosopher Philo records the Jews successfully pressuring Pilate in a similar way to get their demands met (To Gaius 38.301-302).
Where is the exta-Biblical evidence that Pilate dealt with Jesus in any manner, fine line or crass?

45. The Jews exclaiming We have no king but Caesar! (19:15) would not be invented given the Jewish hatred for the Romans, especially if John had been written after A.D. 70. (This would be like New Yorkers today proclaiming "We have no king but Osama Bin Laden!")
1) Where's the eveidence that this occured? Other than the Bible.

2) Bad analogy. Osama has no direct control over New Yorkers, whereas the Romans had a VERY direct influence on the Jews of the day.

50. After the spear was thrust into Jesus' side, out came what appeared to be blood and water (19:34). Today we know that a crucified person might have a watery fluid gather in the sac around the heart called the pericardium.12 John would not have known of this medical condition, and could not have recorded this phenomenon unless he was an eyewitness or had access to eyewitness testimony.13
And the extra-Biblical evidence for this is? You realize that in most cultures, Judiasm included, blood is a symbol of life and water is a symbol of purity, right? "John" is just as likely being symbolic in that passage as he is being prescient.

51. Joseph of Arimathea (19:38), a member of the Sanhedrin who buries Jesus, is an unlikely invention (more on this in the next chapter).
Unlikely or not, what extra-Biblical evidence for him is there?

52. Josephus (Antiquities 17.199) confirms that spices (19:39) were used for royal burials; this detail shows that Nicodemus was not expecting Jesus to rise from the dead, and it also demonstrates that John was not inserting later Christian faith into the text.
Nicodemus could also have been respecting a friend. Besides, most people upon the death of someone close to them has the reasonable expectation that they're not coming back. Death is generally uncurable.

53. Mary Magdalene (20:1), a formerly demon-possessed woman (Luke 8:2), would not be invented as the empty tombs first witness; in fact, women in general would not be presented as witnesses in a made-up story (more on this later as well).
What extra-Biblical evidence for her is there? Considering the percentage of early women followers, I say that there is a greater likelyhood of her being invented to attract more followers. When your target audience are the diseffected, like the evidence for the early years Christianity is (read Bart Erhman's "Early Christianty") then women will factor in strongly.

55. "Rabboni" (20:16), the Aramaic for "teacher," seems an authentic detail because it's another unlikely invention for a writer trying to exalt the risen Jesus.
And the extra-Biblical evidence that anyone said this to Jesus upon his ressurection is? Oh, while you're at it, how about the extra-Biblical evidence for the ressurection itself?

56. Jesus stating that he is returning to "my God and your God" (20:17) does not fit with a later writer bent on creating the idea that Jesus was God.
Extra-Biblical evidence that Jesus said that?

57. One hundred fifty-three fish (21:11) is a theologically irrelevant detail, but perfectly consistent with the tendency of fisherman to want to record and then brag about large catches.
So...because a fisherman brags about his catch, the ressurection happend? I have a huge schlong, does that make me god?

58. The fear of the disciples to ask Jesus who he was (21:12) is an unlikely concoction; it demonstrates natural human amazement at the risen Jesus and perhaps the fact that there was something different about the resurrection body.
So...the writer had a sense of style? Oh, while you're at it, how about the extra-Biblical evidence for the ressurection itself?

59. The cryptic statement from Jesus about the fate of Peter is not clear enough to draw certain theological conclusions (21:18); so why would John make it up? It's another unlikely invention.
John 21:18 said:
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
So, Jesus says "when you were young, you did stuff for yourself; when you're old, others will do it for you" and that's cryptic? It's banal. With a "b"!
 
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