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Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

ergo said:
So a good controlled demolition ensures that no debris exits this literal footprint? Is that what you're claiming?
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No, in a good controlled demolition, the structure doesn't fall into other buildings.
 
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Java Man said:
I'm aware of the dump site. Yet the key elements. Like the infamous column in WTC7 are missing. If all the pieces had been kept until the investigation arrived to its conclusions then those real key elements could have been spared and the rest just recycled. The way it happened is the FBI investigated a bunch of rubble not really knowing what to look for and then the conclusions came in, but the stuff was no longer in the dump.
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In regards to the main tower steel, this is false. None of the steel was recycled until the FBI was finished with it. The pieces were kept until the FBI and NYPD were finished with their examinations.

In regards to the 7 World Trade Steel, it's known that it wasn't kept, but much of that was due to the inability to identify which parts of the structure it came from. Keep in mind that those pieces did in fact pass through the FBI, NYPD, and FEMA examiners hands, and at no time did they indicate that they found failure modes other than what they expected. And given that they knew of the fires and damage from the main towers, explosives or incendiaries would fall under the category of "unexpected".

Anyway, we all know that none of the 7 World Trade steel was kept, but that does not create a conspiracy. Besides, the key pieces from the main towers were indeed kept, and they revealed exactly what we all know today: That the pieces were suffering stresses from the distribution of loads due to the impacts severing columns, and the fires furthermore caused more load shiftings that eventually lead to the start of the collapse. That conclusion was drawn from a study of the steel.

Java Man said:
So we end up with not precisely the most important pieces and not precisely the most thorough investigation into them. Instead we have a quick review of a bunch of material.
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This is a mischaracterization. The components relevant to the initiation of the collapse of the main towers were indeed kept and studied thoroughly. The FEMA investigation was the initial, non-in-depth one, and the NIST investigation was the longer, much more in depth one. Much study was done not only of the steel, but of the fires and the way that the damage from the impacts in addition to the ongoing degradation of the structure in the fire zones lead to what we say.

But, this is all beyond the point. The point is that you attempted to paint the events as though the steel was not properly inspected. You are now retreating from that claim and attempting to make another one. The initial claim was false, as I have demonstrated with the references to the Fort Hamilton and Staten Island dump sites and the examinations being conducted there.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Only a few architects design high skyscrapers like that and know about all the safety reasons involved. It's not something taught in universities. They have to sign special secrecy agreements before learning about things like that. I admit that this is just my guess, and I don't know much about the construction of buildings myself, but anyway.
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You're right about one thing...you don't now much about building construction.

WTC7 did not fall because of an earthquake, it was due to the uncontrolled fires weakening the internal support structure. Nothing more, nothing less. Read the NIST report before you start this nonsense again.
 
ergo said:
Sixteen acres of "debris"? Don't you mean dust? :)

Are you aware that the collapse theory you defend depends on the buildings falling into their own footprints?
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No, I mean the physcial evidence (steel) that lays in Hanger 17 @ JFK Airport from the debris field.

They didn't fall into their own footprints. That's based on lies & accusations from quote-mining alot of eyewitness testimony.

Besides, it would take 2 full years to rig WTC 1, 2 & 7 with explosives & there would be alot of witnesses who would come forward saying that they've seen something odd during those years. And yet, 9 years later, not a single witness has come forward with any claim.
 
excaza said:
No, in a good controlled demolition, the structure doesn't fall into other buildings.
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And this is your argument that the buildings didn't fall straight down into their basements, because some debris was ejected laterally?
 
sabretooth47 said:
You're right about one thing...you don't now much about building construction.

WTC7 did not fall because of an earthquake, it was due to the uncontrolled fires weakening the internal support structure. Nothing more, nothing less. Read the NIST report before you start this nonsense again.
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You don't need the NIST report, just a seismograph
 
ergo said:
And this is your argument that the buildings didn't fall straight down into their basements, because some debris was ejected laterally?
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Some?

Can you just argue both sides of this? I have to go to lunch and you seem to be content to make my claims for me.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Hmm... Good point. I haven't checked that. But there can be several ways to achieve something like that I guess.
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Thank you! Yes there can be ways to achieve something like that. But not in a populated Commerical area where thousands of people work. NYers knew what to look for after the 1993 WTC Bombing, if they seen anything odd they would report it to the NYPD & the NYPD would contact the FBI.
 
excaza said:
Some?

Can you just argue both sides of this? I have to go to lunch and you seem to be content to make my claims for me.
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Did the buildings fall straight down or not, excaza? This is important to your supermegagigajoules theory.
 
Java Man said:
To quote him "Well, they could not identify conclusively which steel was from 7WTC, and what steel came from other buildings, so it is a moot point. "

The only way that could happen was if all markings were gone. Which was not the case. Thus debris could be identifiable.
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You are using an example from the main towers to claim that the steel components in 7 World Trade were similarly marked. They were not. This was discussed before; here's one thread it was mentioned in:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129292
 
Anders Lindman said:
No hard evidence. My theory is that the core columns were cut diagonally by design, and with a plug held in place by gravity at each diagonal cut to keep the core columns at full strength. Then if a hard enough shock wave would hit from below, then the plugs would pop out of position and the core columns would completely lose all their vertical strength and collapse.
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Completely absurd!

You don't need to make any design changes for a structure of that size to collapse mostly straight down. Scale works for you in this respect. The bigger it gets, the more severe its strength against bending would need to be to allow it to tip over.

Two artifacts from the collapses prove this. Firstly, the "kink" seen in the upper block of WTC 2 during collapse -- even after it started to come down, even with a much shorter ~25 story segment, it bent rather than tilted intact. And secondly, the core columns of both Towers survived the collapses, for a few seconds away. So clearly there was no such apparatus as you describe.

There are also published papers on the subject, notably the second appendix of Dr. Bazant's much discussed paper. There are also analogues, such as the collapse of very tall radio towers, and even they do not simply topple over. Their own inertia causes them to buckle and fall straight down.

Don't worry, there is no secret cabal or architects using hidden knowledge and undocumented features to sabotage your buildings.
 
Anders Lindman said:
The secrecy agreement is on 'need to know' basis. It's not something given to students first year at college.
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Even if your story was even partly true, there'd have to be a whole bunch of buildings in heavy siesmic areas that collapsed into their own "footprint" for you to research and get back to us with.
 
Java Man said:
As reference material while the investigation was going on. Thus to better trim the computer simulations.

For themselves should they happen to need it. Which it was since the reports came to some conclusions which could have been better supported had the key beams been kept. But since they didn't know which were the key beams when they shipped it all alway they should have kept them until they finished the report. It's not like the steel was going to rust away.

Once again, at least until the investigation was officially over and the final report handed it.

Complained? Mhh not sure if any. But certainly many would have benefited from having it retained for investigative purpose. Certainly the Debunkers would have benefited as a thorough investigation with the evidence at hand would have prevented the Truther mayhem we have today.

Sure, why not? A few key pieces could be kept. Actually the pieces which were by then known to be key. Not just some random 5% sample.
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The structural engineer who built the WTC knew exactly why the WTC fell.

After the evidence was seen, no explosives, no thermite, only impact damage and fire damage.

Case closed. You must of been asleep for 9 years.

19 terrorists were found to take 4 planes, they were trying to hit large buildings. Wake up, 911 truth is the personification of failure, and they have made it an industry for 9 years.
 
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