Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[Praktik]

has anyone had a chance to see Rauf's birth certificate yet??

 

[johnny karate]

No. Everything to do with the video and interviews of his tenants. Or do you think his tenants have unflattering things to say about his property management abuses because he is a Muslim?

These are things for a court of law to suss out.

Do you believe Rauf is innocent until proven guilty?

 

[thaiboxerken]

No. Everything to do with the video and interviews of his tenants. Or do you think his tenants have unflattering things to say about his property management abuses because he is a Muslim?

Bullpuck. if any other imam was in charge here, the same opposition would exist.

 

[Cicero]

These are things for a court of law to suss out.

Do you believe Rauf is innocent until proven guilty?

Sure, in legal terms which means he can't be punished with a fine or prison term until a courtof law so dictates. However, I think he is a slumlord. I also think Casey Anthony killed her child and Simpson killed two people.

 

[Cicero]

Um, no. He was providing evidence for his claim. You were being fallacious.

Do you not know what the term "appeal to popularity" means?

His claim was based on TIME's dopey survey, not eviidence. Don't you know what "evidence" means?

 

[Cicero]

I'm embarrassed for you.

With all your indiscriminate calls of "bigotry," you are the one who should be overcome with shame.

 

[Cleon]

His claim was based on TIME's dopey survey, not eviidence. Don't you know what "evidence" means?

 

[johnny karate]

With all your indiscriminate calls of "bigotry," you are the one who should be overcome with shame.

Perhaps. Why don't you give me a non-bigoted reason for opposing Park51 so the shaming can begin?

 

[Toontown]

I see no debate. I see only baseless accusations formed out of bigotry and irrational fear.

You mean like your accusations of "bigotry and irrational fear"?

Yeah, I see that too. Big time.

 

[johnny karate]

Sure, in legal terms which means he can't be punished with a fine or prison term until a courtof law so dictates. However, I think he is a slumlord. I also think Casey Anthony killed her child and Simpson killed two people.

Casey Anthony was indicted by a grand jury and O.J. Simpson was found liable for wrongful death in a civil court.

What legal proceedings have been administered against Rauf that have convinced you of his guilt?

 

[johnny karate]

You mean like your accusations of "bigotry and irrational fear"?

Yeah, I see that too. Big time.

Then perhaps you can provide a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51 since no one else in this thread seems able.

 

[nchammer326]

Who is denying Rauf any of the Bill of Rights?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/08/orrin_hatchs_defense_of_park51.html

Opponents of the Park51 project say they aren't contesting the group's right to build there, but they actually spent months trying to use the landmarking process to prevent the project from being built, to the point of suing the Landmark Commission after it approved the project. Both Republican gubernatorial candidates supported the effort to landmark the building, and both promised to use government methods -- the public safety commission, eminent domain -- to block the project. There were also calls forinvestigations of the group's finances from politicians in Congress, absent anything resembling reasonable suspicion.

If opponents of the project had been successful in their efforts, it's likely that they would have run afoul of a 2000 era law Hatch sponsored that prevents the government from using onerous zoning requirements from blocking construction of religious buildings.

 

[Cicero]

Then perhaps you can provide a non-bigoted reason to oppose Park51 since no one else in this thread seems able.

You really need new material. You pose this same inane proposition in threads whenever people do not share your myopic view of the world. Certainly you must recognize that your opinion carries no more weight or moral authority than those who make up the 70% in the TIME survey. You have already demonstrated on numerous occasions that you are incapable of harnessing your own prejudices long enough to recognize there is not just your righteous opinion that has validity.

"More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center." Time Magazine, Abt SRBI, surveyed 1,002 adults


Now if you could manage to indicate where the "bigotry" is present in those who answered "yes" to the ABT SRBI survey's above question.

 

[A'isha]

Now if you could manage to indicate where the "bigotry" is present in those who answered "yes" to the ABT SRBI survey's above question.

The part where they associate blame for the 9/11 attacks (carried out mostly by Wahhabist Sunni Muslims) with Rauf and his congregation (who are Sufi, a sect that until a couple of years ago was actually illegal under Wahhabism).

 

[Cicero]

The part where they associate blame for the 9/11 attacks (carried out mostly by Wahhabist Sunni Muslims) with Rauf and his congregation (who are Sufi, a sect that until a couple of years ago was actually illegal under Wahhabism).

Where did you get that from this survey question?

'''...that proceeding with the plan would be an insult tothat proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."


The question isn't worded, even though Rauf is not a Wahhabist Sunni Muslim as those who planned and carried out 9/11, is the mosque "an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."

 

[A'isha]

Where did you get that from this survey question?

'''...that proceeding with the plan would be an insult tothat proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."


The question isn't worded, even though Rauf is not a Wahhabist Sunni Muslim as those who planned and carried out 9/11, is the mosque "an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."

How is this mosque "an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center"? The people building the mosque didn't carry out the 9/11 attacks. They didn't support the attacks. They aren't even the same kind of Muslims as those who attacked us that day. In fact, those who did attack us hate and kill the kinds of Muslims who are building this mosque.

So, please, tell me: how and why is this mosque "insulting"?

 

[johnny karate]

You really need new material. You pose this same inane proposition in threads whenever people do not share your myopic view of the world. Certainly you must recognize that your opinion carries no more weight or moral authority than those who make up the 70% in the TIME survey. You have already demonstrated on numerous occasions that you are incapable of harnessing your own prejudices long enough to recognize there is not just your righteous opinion that has validity.

I propose the "same inane proposition" in this and other threads because most opponents of Park51 are too cowardly to address it. I'll give you credit for at least trying.

Also, I like how you describe my belief that all Americans should be subject to equal application of Constitutional rights as a "myopic view of the world". The staggering irony in such an accusation gave me quite a hearty laugh.

"More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center." Time Magazine, Abt SRBI, surveyed 1,002 adults

Now if you could manage to indicate where the "bigotry" is present in those who answered "yes" to the ABT SRBI survey's above question.

I'd be happy to. But first I'll need some clarification. As ANTPogo already put it:

How is this mosque "an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center"? The people building the mosque didn't carry out the 9/11 attacks. They didn't support the attacks. They aren't even the same kind of Muslims as those who attacked us that day. In fact, those who did attack us hate and kill the kinds of Muslims who are building this mosque.

So, please, tell me: how and why is this mosque "insulting"?

I reiterate that question:

How specifically is Park51 an "insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center"?

 

[Ladewig]

"More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."

TIME wasn't satisfied with this answer that their own polling (Abt SRBI, surveyed 1,002 adults ) found and so they decided to find a way to make this some indictment against Muslims. How do 1,002 adults represent 30% of Americans?

I am not sure what you goal is in asking this question. Are you trying to say that modern polling methods are invalid? That one cannot conduct a national poll with only 1000 respondants?

Is TIME's agenda in doubt?

I don't think so, but how does Time's agenda have any effect on the results of the poll? People were asked if Muslims should have the right to serve as president and 30% said no.

Tough call? You can't accept Rauf's possible decision to build the mosque elsewhere at face value? Has Rauf ever said that he can't build the mosque because of "death threats and threats of property destruction?" Where did you get this "if" scenario?

I made it up out of whole cloth. There has never been a death threat against him ever. I just wanted to see if you would catch my outrageous lies.

 

[Ladewig]

Was that what Ladwig was doing when he cited the TIME's survey? But don't worry. TIME 's appeal to popularity made sure that their readers didn't miss how these majority opinions have to be cloaked in 'bigotry."

Ladewig.

TIME's appeal to popularity? I don't understand your claim. They ran a poll, they published the results. Where is the appeal to popularity?

 

[Chaos]

Where did you get that from this survey question?

'''...that proceeding with the plan would be an insult tothat proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."


The question isn't worded, even though Rauf is not a Wahhabist Sunni Muslim as those who planned and carried out 9/11, is the mosque "an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center."

But how would anyone get the idea that a project by a religious group which had nothing at all to do with the WTC attacks would be an insult to its victims?