The Unobtainable Condition

[aggle-rithm]

In another thread Wolfman spoke of the Raelian belief that if we build an embassy for them, aliens will come and give us eternal life. That got me thinking of other times when a group or movement said, "If we can only accomplish 'blah', then we will obtain 'bleh'", where "blah" is something that will probably never be accomplished, thus guaranteeing that the existence of "bleh", the ultimate revelation or prize, will never actually be tested.

The first example that popped into my mind was the often-stated goal of the 9/11 "Truth" movement, to get an impartial, independent investigation with full subpeona power into the involvement of the US goverment, the New World Order, and/or the Jews in the conspiracy to fake the terrorist attacks. They know, deep down, that they will never get such an investigation. Even if they do, they will simply say, "No, we need a REAL investigation", and thus their beliefs go forever untested.

Are there other examples? I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

[kuroyume0161]

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace.

This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result.

 

[Lothian]

Cargo Cults^WP

 

[aggle-rithm]

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace.

This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result.

Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong.

 

[Ladewig]

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S.


These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

 

[kuroyume0161]

Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong.

True, but about the same as the Raelians. For a more concrete example, we can use Mark 16:17-18:

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.

In this case, one supposes that no one has believed enough or invoked his name properly since there is no evidence that such things every happened or are possible.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable.

The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered.

During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out.

The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though.

 

[talkie toaster]

Well they all laughed at Kevin Costcutter when he built that Netball Rounders Baseball field so Hairless Joe could......could......what in the name of Glavin was that film about.

 

[RobRoy]

During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out.

The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though.

My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage.

Definitely more coverage. We can learn about disasters in near real time whereas before the internet it may or may not ever be reported in your local newspaper, let alone the news.

Also - I definitly think your age also affects your perception of an increase. Not only do you have an accumulated amount of memories of disasters you begin to pay more attention. As a kid your likely to probably be oblivious to any disaster unless it directly affects you whereas an adult you may be aware of the disaster on the other side of the globe even if it will never affect you.

I can predict the future: The next chance I get I'll ask my kids what they think of the Pakistani Floods that recently happened. My Prediction of their response: Huh? Hey check out my new Harry Potter wand I just got from Goodwill. (Or a variation thereof).

 

[Ladewig]

Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable.

The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered.

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

I think that second point you make might have been Lyndon B. Johnson's Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way.

 

[Resume]

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

And both schools of thought do not demonstrate much thought.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I think that second point you make might have been Lyndon B. Johnson's Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way.

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

Yeah - and when he signed it I believe I read his quote where he said now all children all over America will be acknowledging (or praying) to God. I might be mistaken. I'm having trouble finding his exact quote.

 

[A Christian Sceptic]

Here is his quote:

In 1953, the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus mounted a campaign to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. The nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, a reported 15 resolutions were initiated in Congress to change the pledge. They got nowhere until Rev. George Docherty (1911 - 2008) preached a sermon that was attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps on 1954-FEB-7. His sermon said in part:

"Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow."

After the service, President Eisenhower said that he agreed with the sermon. In the following weeks, the news spread, and public opinion grew. Three days later, Senator Homer Ferguson, (R-MI), sponsored a bill to add God to the Pledge. It was approved as a joint resolution 1954-JUN-8. It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time:

"From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."

Found here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

 

[Paulhoff]

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

The real problem, Communism has nothing to do with gods, and that is how our government is suppost to be too.

Paul

 

[I Ratant]

But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S.


These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

.
Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA.
It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs.

 

[Resume]

.
Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA.
It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs.

God was aiming at the heathens.

 

[I Ratant]

God was aiming at the heathens.

.
And -you- know this how?*
I remember dear old deluded Robertson claiming success in having god divert a hurricane from coming ashore in Robertson's community and killing people there, to come ashore someplace else to kill people.




*"It is not given man to know god's reasons".
"The lord works in mysterious ways".
"With this sign, you will conquer".
etc.