Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

Interesting that you feel free to conclude that I do not meet your standards as a skeptic, but think that it would be a personal attack if you drew the same conclusion about another. A curious, evasive post.

Actually its not evading the post. If you had bothered to read the back and forth comments between them you would realize that, if anything negative he said about Fulcanelli could be concluded to be a personal attack. This post has been moderated in the past and trying to get someone to comment about another poster could land this post back on the moderated list. Your more than welcome to start another post if you really want to discuss what it takes to be a skeptic. Now if you was to ask me about said person I would say something like. I believe Fulcanelli honestly believes Knox/Sollecito killed Meredith. I also believe that it wouldn't take much to change Fulcanelli's mind. Where as I have looked at the evidence and have deemed it lacking. Some people dont need much reasoning to believe in innocence or guilt. Now if the evidence where to change and my opinion on the matter could change depending on the evidence.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Interesting that you feel free to conclude that I do not meet your standards as a skeptic, but think that it would be a personal attack if you drew the same conclusion about another. A curious, evasive post.

This is off-topic. Take it to PM or start a new thread.

 

[Amazer]

This is off-topic. Take it to PM or start a new thread.

Perhaps, to avoid future derails, you would be well advised not to lecture other people about what it takes to be a Keven_Lowe approved Skeptic. Just a suggestion.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Perhaps, to avoid future derails, you would be well advised not to lecture other people about what it takes to be a Keven_Lowe approved Skeptic. Just a suggestion.

I'm flattered that you think I came up with the idea of skepticism, but it's a lot older than I am. I'm just articulating ideas that go back to the mid-1700s, for the benefit of people whose worldview hasn't quite caught up to that point.

But let's get this puppy back on topic. I have some questions for you and Lionking:

1. How do you explain the fact that all of Meredith's last meal was still in her stomach, and none of it was in her bowel, if she was undisturbed until 10pm and died after 10pm? This is completely inconsistent with everything we know about human digestion. Estimating time of death by stomach contents is imprecise to a degree, but not to anything like the degree needed to explain this.
   
2. How do you explain the fact that Meredith's mobile phone pinged a tower in between her house and the final resting place of her phones at 22:13, if she was not murdered until 23:30 or similar? Meredith's phone had never pinged that tower before so while it was physically possible for her phone to reach that tower from her room, it would never actually do so in the normal course of things. This is nigh incontrovertible evidence that at 22:13 the killer had left her house and was en route to the place where they dumped her phones.
   
3. How do you explain the fact that the characteristics of Amanda's "confession" (vagueness, doubts about its authenticity, obvious errors of fact, conformity with police theories at the time, later retraction) match with those of an internalised false confession, a well-recognised and objectively documented psychological phenomenon? There is no evidence Amanda knew enough about such false confessions to fake one so convincingly, and indeed if she knew enough to fake one she would almost certainly know that such confessions often lead to the confessor being convicted. If it is highly implausible that she faked an internalised false confession, the only alternative was that this was a real internalised false confession.
   
4. Do you acknowledge that since Meredith died long before 23:30, the witnesses who claim to have heard a scream at about that time cannot have been hearing Meredith scream, and that this destroys the claim that these witnesses confirm Amanda's internalised false confession because they heard the scream Amanda described? If not, why not?
   
5. If you believe Curatolo's testimony, how do you explain the fact that the computer records provided by the police show that an episode of Naruto was opened on Raffaele's computer at 21:26, which would have lasted for at least twenty minutes, covering the time period when Curatolo very specifically claims to have seen them out of the house?
   
6. If you still believe Curatolo's testimony, and cannot present scientific evidence to dispute the time of death based on Meredith's stomach contents, doesn't Curatolo give Amanda and Raffaele an alibi?
   
7. If you do not believe Curatolo's highly specific testimony, what alternative do you suggest to the obvious hypothesis that Curatolo was a police stooge who committed perjury, and that his whole statement was false?
   
8. Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA on the "double DNA" knife proves absolutely nothing regarding her guilt or innocence, because it could have been deposited on the handle by completely innocent means? If not, why not?
   
9. Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood found in the house proves absolutely nothing, because it could have been deposited by completely innocent means before Meredith's death? If not, why not?
   
10. Do you acknowledge that without this DNA evidence, absolutely no forensic evidence links Amanda to Meredith's murder at all?
    
11. What hard evidence do you have that there was a staged break-in given that we have Filomena's statement that there was glass on the floor of her room as well as on top of her clothes? The fact that nothing was stolen from this room is not evidence of a staged break-in, the lack of fingerprints or DNA from Rudy in that room is in no way unusual even if he did search the room without gloves, and the unsupported word of police who did not document their observations is not hard evidence.
    
12. Do you acknowledge that the police destroyed the evidence, in the form of the Spotlight metadata for Stardust on Raffaele's computer, which could potentially have confirmed their alibi, that they were at home at the prosecution's alleged time of death?
    
13. Finally, doesn't it ever strike you as weird that Mignini "figured out" that this was a once-in-history three-way sex crime more or less on sight, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that theory? Isn't it just a bit convenient that when absolutely all the forensic evidence failed to confirm his theory, miraculous and unreproducible LCN DNA evidence gathered at the eleventh hour popped up out of Stefanoni's lab to save his theory, but they refuse to show their raw data or their log files? Isn't it cause for concern that the best evidence for the prosecution can't be reproduced and they refuse to show their work, and that the vital piece of evidence that could have confirmed Amanda and Raffaele's alibis (the Spotlight data for Stardust) was destroyed by police?

Thanks in advance. Take as long as you need.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Actually the real point thats being missed is this. How did they clean up the mess going to the bathroom, without cleaning up the mess leaving the bathroom?

Massei's premise, apparently, is that Raffaele stepped in blood in the murder room, walked into the bathroom, and planted his foot on the mat, leaving the bloody print. Then he cleaned up the trail of footprints leading to the mat, thoroughly enough so they could not be detected even with luminol, but without disturbing Guede's shoe prints or eliminating the luminol footprint in the corridor that was attributed to Amanda.

Then, after carrying out a cleanup of footprints that was both thorough and precise, Raffaele left the bathmat in plain sight.

I don't understand how anyone can believe that.

 

[Chris C]

Massei's premise, apparently, is that Raffaele stepped in blood in the murder room, walked into the bathroom, and planted his foot on the mat, leaving the bloody print. Then he cleaned up the trail of footprints leading to the mat, thoroughly enough so they could not be detected even with luminol, but without disturbing Guede's shoe prints or eliminating the luminol footprint in the corridor that was attributed to Amanda.

Then, after carrying out a cleanup of footprints that was both thorough and precise, Raffaele left the bathmat in plain sight.

I don't understand how anyone can believe that.

I would still like to hear a plausible explanation.

Did the roommates testify to any towels missing? Because we do know from Rudy's own admission that he TRIED to help Meredith after both Meredith and himself was stabbed by Sollecito and went to the bathroom and fetched towels for her to try and stop the bleeding. Then fled after Sollecito convinced him they would blame it on the black guy.

 

[Antony]

(msg #5938, p 149)
The point is that being abroad, with a police chief who thinks your story is not correct doesn't limit your choices anymore then it would have as if you were in your home country.

That's arguable, but it's beside the point. Being in a foreign country and being questioned in a language she barely knew was an additional complication for Amanda and a factor the police exploited, but was not in itself critical.

Let me rephrase my point: when you are in a police station, surrounded by hostile officers and the police chief tells you he knows that your story is incorrect, then your options start to become limited.

 

[Chris C]

That's arguable, but it's beside the point. Being in a foreign country and being questioned in a language she barely knew was an additional complication for Amanda and a factor the police exploited, but was not in itself critical.

Let me rephrase my point: when you are in a police station, surrounded by hostile officers and the police chief tells you he knows that your story is incorrect, then your options start to become limited.

Also add in the fact that she claims to have been slapped.

 

[Amazer]

That's arguable, but it's beside the point. Being in a foreign country and being questioned in a language she barely knew was an additional complication for Amanda and a factor the police exploited, but was not in itself critical.

Let me rephrase my point: when you are in a police station, surrounded by hostile officers and the police chief tells you he knows that your story is incorrect, then your options start to become limited.

Right, but then your options were already limited to start with. And none of this automatically leads to the story being fed to her by the police investigators or her being "coerced" to admit to that particular story.

Look I'm not saying that the story wasn't fed to her, i'm also not saying she wasn't coerced to admit to this particular story. What I am saying is that the arguments/statements that you have provided so far are not evidence for what you claim.

 

[Amazer]

Also add in the fact that she claims to have been slapped.

But unable to identify the female police officer when it was required.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I would still like to hear a plausible explanation.

Did the roommates testify to any towels missing? Because we do know from Rudy's own admission that he TRIED to help Meredith after both Meredith and himself was stabbed by Sollecito and went to the bathroom and fetched towels for her to try and stop the bleeding. Then fled after Sollecito convinced him they would blame it on the black guy.

I haven't heard anything about missing towels. Three towels were found in Meredith's room - two underneath her body, and one near the foot of her bed. The ones underneath her body were soaked in blood, and the one on the foot of the bed was lightly stained with blood.

I don't know if the towels were in the bathroom or were already in her room. I am guessing the latter, because there don't seem to have been any towel racks in the little bathroom, except possibly on the back of the door.

 

[Chris C]

Doublepost

 

[Chris C]

But unable to identify the female police officer when it was required.

So not being able to identify the person means it didn't happen? So the person that hit her in the back of the head was standing in front of her when she did it?

 

[Chris C]

I haven't heard anything about missing towels. Three towels were found in Meredith's room - two underneath her body, and one near the foot of her bed. The ones underneath her body were soaked in blood, and the one on the foot of the bed was lightly stained with blood.

I don't know if the towels were in the bathroom or were already in her room. I am guessing the latter, because there don't seem to have been any towel racks in the little bathroom, except possibly on the back of the door.

It goes to the clean up theory. What did Knox and Sollecito use to clean up the house if nothing was missing?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Look I'm not saying that the story wasn't fed to her, i'm also not saying she wasn't coerced to admit to this particular story. What I am saying is that the arguments/statements that you have provided so far are not evidence for what you claim.

There isn't any evidence, that we know of, so we have to decide what is most plausible. If you accept the verdict, you must also accept that Amanda and Raffaele were interrogated, arrested, and carted off to jail without either of them saying a word about their accomplice, the guy who left a bloody hand print at the crime scene and then skipped the country.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It goes to the clean up theory. What did Knox and Sollecito use to clean up the house if nothing was missing?

There was a closet full of cleaning supplies, and I imagine they could have used some of them without it being noticed. But there is no evidence that they did.

 

[Chris C]

There was a closet full of cleaning supplies, and I imagine they could have used some of them without it being noticed. But there is no evidence that they did.

Not supplies. What did they use to wipe up the cleaning supplies with. If no towels where missing, and the mop bucket was checked and it wasn't used to clean the floor.

 

[Chris C]

There isn't any evidence, that we know of, so we have to decide what is most plausible. If you accept the verdict, you must also accept that Amanda and Raffaele were interrogated, arrested, and carted off to jail without either of them saying a word about their accomplice, the guy who left a bloody hand print at the crime scene and then skipped the country.

So the interrogators are sueing knox for what? What exactly did she say that they are sueing her for?

 

[LondonJohn]

Massei's premise, apparently, is that Raffaele stepped in blood in the murder room, walked into the bathroom, and planted his foot on the mat, leaving the bloody print. Then he cleaned up the trail of footprints leading to the mat, thoroughly enough so they could not be detected even with luminol, but without disturbing Guede's shoe prints or eliminating the luminol footprint in the corridor that was attributed to Amanda.

Then, after carrying out a cleanup of footprints that was both thorough and precise, Raffaele left the bathmat in plain sight.

I don't understand how anyone can believe that.

And it appears that he specifically drew the attention of the police to the bathmat print. That's some risky bluff strategy!

 

[Fine]

I haven't heard anything about missing towels. Three towels were found in Meredith's room - two underneath her body, and one near the foot of her bed. The ones underneath her body were soaked in blood, and the one on the foot of the bed was lightly stained with blood.

I don't know if the towels were in the bathroom or were already in her room. I am guessing the latter, because there don't seem to have been any towel racks in the little bathroom, except possibly on the back of the door.

____________________________

Here's a November 2nd photograph of the cabinet at the back of the bathroom, next to the shower. A convenient spot to store towels. The top surface looks suspiciously blank, for a small bathroom shared by two young women. Compare this surface with the shelf above the sink (photograph at PMF) which is congested with various soaps, sprays, creams, powders, etc. that women are fond of.

And,.............why would Rudy lie about the source of the towels?

///