Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

forensic moles

No there is no other innocent explanatinof how Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's BLOOD.
What explnation do you have for that?

And for your information, Rafi's DNA was clearly and abundantly found on Meredith's bra clasp. Any innocent explanationfor that do you think?
It was never proven otherwise.

loverofzion,

Stefanoni should have done substrate controls, but she did not. That would have made a better case that the mixed DNA results were meaningful. Raffaele's DNA was not abundant; it was borderline LCN. With respect to both the bra clasp and at least one of Amanda's DNA profiles, there is evidence of one person or several person's DNA there as well. If their DNA arrived innocently why not Raffaele's or Amanda's?

With respect to luminol, both you and Comodi would have us confuse a presumptive test (luminol) with a conclusive test for blood. However, your position is even weaker. The luminol-positive prints in the hallway did not test positive by TMB, nor did they show Meredith's DNA. They also did not show streaking, which would have been evidence of cleaning. Luminol does not prevent DNA profiling from being done, BTW.

If Amanda had sex with someone on the train, why is his name not on the list of sexual partners she wrote in response to her false-positive HIV result, the result for which she was apparently not counseled? If either Amanda or Raffaele did hard drugs in Perugia, why was there no evidence of this presented in court? You are spreading baseless rumors.

The fact that Guede wore a larger shoe size is not proof that his bare foot was larger. In fact Guede and Sollecito have a similar length foot overall, but the individual dimensions are different. The presence of the second toe in the bloody mat print is striking.

More generally, you have gone from one point to another, seldom stopping to answer the legitimate points we have raised in opposition to your arguments, most or all of which were refuted before you arrived. I wish you would actually engage (meaning to consider and reply thoughtfully), as opposed to restating old talking points. We have engaged you in good faith; I wish I were sure you were doing the same.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Stefanoni should have done substrate controls, but she did not. That would have made a better case that the mixed DNA results were meaningful. Raffaele's DNA was not abundant; it was borderline LCN. With respect to both the bra clasp and at least one of Amanda's DNA profiles, there is evidence of one person or several person's DNA there as well. If their DNA arrived innocently why not Raffaele's or Amanda's?

Experts for both Meredith's family and for the defence were present when the tests were done. They made no objections. Dr Stefanoni's methods and findings were also supported during the trial by independent experts representing Meredith's family. Raffaele's DNA on the clasp was a complete profile and indicates primary transfer. The other traces were mere trace fragments of DNA. They indicate secondary transfer and were of females, as one would expect on an item of a girl's clothing who lived in a house with other girls and shared washing and dryng facilities. What was Raffaele's excuse?

With respect to luminol, both you and Comodi would have us confuse a presumptive test (luminol) with a conclusive test for blood. However, your position is even weaker. The luminol-positive prints in the hallway did not test positive by TMB, nor did they show Meredith's DNA. They also did not show streaking, which would have been evidence of cleaning. Luminol does not prevent DNA profiling from being done, BTW.

Even the expert for the defence, Dr Gino, concurred that the TMB test can only be used to prove the presence of blood, not its absence.

If Amanda had sex with someone on the train, why is his name not on the list of sexual partners she wrote in response to her false-positive HIV result, the result for which she was apparently not counseled? If either Amanda or Raffaele did hard drugs in Perugia, why was there no evidence of this presented in court? You are spreading baseless rumors.

She probably couldn't remember his name. And they are not "rumours", Amanda wrote it herself on her social networking site.

The fact that Guede wore a larger shoe size is not proof that his bare foot was larger. In fact Guede and Sollecito have a similar length foot overall, but the individual dimensions are different. The presence of the second toe in the bloody mat print is striking

I see, people with small feet wear size 12's and people with big feet wear size 4's. You realise your argument is plain silly right?

The print on the mat is not a match for Rudy Guede. It is a match for Raffaele Sollecito.

 

[Mary_H]

Pray that it happens

Pastor Terry Jones of Florida models the perfect solution for Mignini and his band of merry pranksters. "We feel that God is telling us to stop," Jones said, after announcing he would not burn Qurans after all on the anniversary of 9/11.

Sudden enlightenment by way of miraculous divine intervention is an ideal way for Mignini to do the right thing while still saving face.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hello, Michael
Nice to meet again

She probably couldn't remember his name. And they are not "rumours", Amanda wrote it herself on her social networking site.

Or more probably it simply didn't happened. Providing some sources would make you sound more credible. And no, some tabloid article will not do.

I see, people with small feet wear size 12's and people with big feet wear size 4's. You realise your argument is plain silly right?

The print on the mat is not a match for Rudy Guede. It is a match for Raffaele Sollecito.

Maybe looking up Rudy's foot measurements would help you not embarrass yourself, because what you say is not even an argument, it's conjuring reality away. Seriously, double-check your sources and then come back and tell us how long are Rudy's and Sollecito's feet.


It would really help the discussion if you kept it factual.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Sudden enlightenment by way of miraculous divine intervention is an ideal way for Mignini to do the right thing while still saving face.

That would help him stay in character - devout and yearning for the supernatural.

 

[RoseMontague]

Experts for both Meredith's family and for the defence were present when the tests were done. They made no objections. Dr Stefanoni's methods and findings were also supported during the trial by independent experts representing Meredith's family. Raffaele's DNA on the clasp was a complete profile and indicates primary transfer. The other traces were mere trace fragments of DNA. They indicate secondary transfer and were of females, as one would expect on an item of a girl's clothing who lived in a house with other girls and shared washing and dryng facilities. What was Raffaele's excuse?

Even the expert for the defence, Dr Gino, concurred that the TMB test can only be used to prove the presence of blood, not its absence.

She probably couldn't remember his name. And they are not "rumours", Amanda wrote it herself on her social networking site.

I see, people with small feet wear size 12's and people with big feet wear size 4's. You realise your argument is plain silly right?

The print on the mat is not a match for Rudy Guede. It is a match for Raffaele Sollecito.

Good to see you posting here as well.

Raffaele's "excuse" is that he was not present in Meredith's room the night of the murder. A court appointed expert hardly qualifies as an expert for the defense and Meredith's lawyers and experts were clearly on the side of guilt.

I am curious if you believe everything Amanda wrote because that sex with a stranger on a train is not believable to me. Do you have a link to what she wrote about this so we can judge it in context?

The TMB tests were followed up by DNA tests. There is no solid evidence to show what caused the Luminol reactions or when it was deposited on the floor. To continue to say that these are "bloody footprints" ignores the evidence. Gino was correct. There is no proof that the luminol reaction to the footprints were caused blood and there is no evidence of streaking in these prints that would possibly show a cleanup effort.

Your example with the size 4 and size 12 is what is silly. Raffaele and Rudy had shoe sizes that were pretty close to each other and foot sizes that were even closer.

The print on the mat is a match for Rudy, in my opinion.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Or more probably it simply didn't happened. Providing some sources would make you sound more credible. And no, some tabloid article will not do.

No, it isn't from the tabloids. It is from her own social networking site, as I said.

Does if this also mean, that anything in the tabloids that is supportive of Amanda can also be dismissed out of hand? just askin'

Maybe looking up Rudy's foot measurements would help you not embarrass yourself, because what you say is not even an argument, it's conjuring reality away. Seriously, double-check your sources and then come back and tell us how long are Rudy's and Sollecito's feet.

Not 'arguable', what do you mean not arguable? It was argued in court. And the judgement was made, after listening to all the arguments and viewing all the evidence and measurements, that it was not Rudy's print and it was Raffaele's.

What you 'really' mean is that you don't accept it. That's a far cry from 'not arguable'. I am keeping it factual, it is not I that arguing against matters that were resolved in a Court of Law!

 

[Fulcanelli]

I am curious if you believe everything Amanda wrote because that sex with a stranger on a train is not believable to me. Do you have a link to what she wrote about this so we can judge it in context?

Maybe she was lying. Why not, it seems to be in her nature, wouldn't you agree? But truth or not, she certainly wanted people to believe it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Experts for both Meredith's family and for the defence were present when the tests were done. They made no objections. Dr Stefanoni's methods and findings were also supported during the trial by independent experts representing Meredith's family. Raffaele's DNA on the clasp was a complete profile and indicates primary transfer. The other traces were mere trace fragments of DNA. They indicate secondary transfer and were of females, as one would expect on an item of a girl's clothing who lived in a house with other girls and shared washing and dryng facilities. What was Raffaele's excuse?

Fulcanelli,

It is a shame that the defense was not invited to the collection of evidence. They could have pointed out that Stefanoni’s documented failure to change gloves frequently runs counter to good forensic practice. The literal closeness between Maresca and Mignini (as I recently demonstrated) and the fact that he received DNA information not given to the defense makes the claim that the Kercher’s legal representatives were “independent” a risible one.

Sollecito’s putative DNA was far less abundant than Meredith’s on the clasp. Moreover, your statements about DNA traces arriving from secondary transfer are simply wrong. One cannot tell primary transfer from secondary transfer from the amount of DNA or the completeness of a profile, as I documented in the previous thread. I have repeatedly asked you and BobTheDonkey to support this claim from the forensic literature, and you have never done so. BTW, I have left BobTheDonkey, Kermit, and Stilicho a number of forensics questions, and none has been answered. You are welcome to give them a shot.

Guede and Sollecito have similar forefoot dimensions, as Charlie Wilkes reminded us. I only wished to point out that when someone buys a pair of shoes, they sometimes compromise between getting the length just right and getting the widths in the heel or forefoot just right.

I am glad that you are back, and grateful does not begin to describe how I feel about having access to Massei's words in English. Please thank the PMF translators on my behalf.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The TMB tests were followed up by DNA tests. There is no solid evidence to show what caused the Luminol reactions or when it was deposited on the floor. To continue to say that these are "bloody footprints" ignores the evidence. Gino was correct. There is no proof that the luminol reaction to the footprints were caused blood and there is no evidence of streaking in these prints that would possibly show a cleanup effort.

Luminol reacts with blood. There was blood all around the place and an absence of anything else that would react with luminol. It is therefore correct to judge that it was blood, just as a Court of Law did.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

social networking sites

Maybe she was lying. Why not, it seems to be in her nature, wouldn't you agree? But truth or not, she certainly wanted people to believe it.

If I had read something like that, I would assume it was a joke (and I recall reading somewhere that was how Amanda intended it--sorry that I don't have a citation). It is unfortunate that one's MySpace and Facebook jokes can be seriously or even tragically misunderstood, but it has happened before.

 

[Fulcanelli]

It is a shame that the defense was not invited to the collection of evidence. They could have pointed out that Stefanoni’s documented failure to change gloves frequently runs counter to good forensic practice. The literal closeness between Maresca and Mignini (as I recently demonstrated) and the fact that he received DNA information not given to the defense makes the claim that the Kercher’s legal representatives were “independent” a risible one.

Actually they were on the second visit. They weren't on the first as there was no defence then. Of course Meredith's legal experts were independent! The information that was not given was shown to be irrelevant (and yes, the experts for Meredith got to see that too). That's why that information is not normally given, it isn't important.

[quote="halides1]Sollecito’s putative DNA was far less abundant than Meredith’s on the clasp. [/quote]

Well that's hardly surprising is it?


[quote="halides1]One cannot tell primary transfer from secondary transfer from the amount of DNA or the completeness of a profile[/quote]

In this case one doesn't need to be able to tell the difference. It is not outlandish to accept that a few fragments of DNA of the women with which Meredith LIVED got on the clasp. How do you think things work in the real world...you imagine all evidence only has the DNA of the victim and the murderer on it, like it spent it's whole life before in an isolation bubble and that if there's a trace of anything else it should be thrown out? Unless you can demonstrate those DNA fractions arrived on the clasp 'after' the murder rather then some time before, you have no argument for contamination. Can you?

 

[Fulcanelli]

If I had read something like that, I would assume it was a joke (and I recall reading somewhere that was how Amanda intended it--sorry that I don't have a citation). It is unfortunate that one's MySpace and Facebook jokes can be seriously or even tragically misunderstood, but it has happened before.

Well, that's 'you'. Her friends didn't, from the comments on her site to it.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'll add anything that is reasonably sourced (and you can too). If the appeal lists any events with known times that aren't here or aren't well sourced here I'd like them included.

OK.
Your timeline has this for the 22:13 call:

22:13 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia. Cell tower may not be significant.
(Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41

You should probably add that Raffaele's appeal does find the cell tower significant and could be an indication the the cell phone's location had changed from Meredith's apartment to a location between her apartment and the garden where they were left.

 

[RoseMontague]

Luminol reacts with blood. There was blood all around the place and an absence of anything else that would react with luminol. It is therefore correct to judge that it was blood, just as a Court of Law did.

The fact that a court of law judged it as correct is the point we are arguing. I believe they were incorrect. How were these bare footprints cleaned without streaking the blood to an unrecognizable blob? Some of these Luminol revealed prints showed Amanda's DNA and not Meredith's (3 in Amanda's room for example). How did Amanda remove Meredith's DNA from the "bloody footprints" and leave her own DNA there on all three of those prints?

Secondly, you say that there was an absence of anything else that would react with luminol. What is the source of that claim? Did the police inventory every cleaning and personal hygiene product in there and test it to see if it would react to luminol? How about that famous turnip juice you are always talking about?

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, that's 'you'. Her friends didn't, from the comments on her site to it.

You have a link to this?

 

[Fulcanelli]

You have a link to this?

Her family took it down.

But it's okay, we can pretend it never existed if it makes you feel better.

 

[christianahannah]

The fact that a court of law judged it as correct is the point we are arguing. I believe they were incorrect. How were these bare footprints cleaned without streaking the blood to an unrecognizable blob? Some of these Luminol revealed prints showed Amanda's DNA and not Meredith's (3 in Amanda's room for example). How did Amanda remove Meredith's DNA from the "bloody footprints" and leave her own DNA there on all three of those prints?

Secondly, you say that there was an absence of anything else that would react with luminol. What is the source of that claim? Did the police inventory every cleaning and personal hygiene product in there and test it to see if it would react to luminol? How about that famous turnip juice you are always talking about?

Hello Rose.

I remember reading several weeks ago a post from Yummi at PMF concerning the luminol footprints (with reference to the Motivations).

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=49586#p49586

I am not a scientist so I cannot say how accurate Yummi's assessment is, however, it is interesting and may provide answers to questions concerning the luminol prints.

 

[Fulcanelli]

The fact that a court of law judged it as correct is the point we are arguing. I believe they were incorrect. How were these bare footprints cleaned without streaking the blood to an unrecognizable blob? Some of these Luminol revealed prints showed Amanda's DNA and not Meredith's (3 in Amanda's room for example). How did Amanda remove Meredith's DNA from the "bloody footprints" and leave her own DNA there on all three of those prints?

Secondly, you say that there was an absence of anything else that would react with luminol. What is the source of that claim? Did the police inventory every cleaning and personal hygiene product in there and test it to see if it would react to luminol? How about that famous turnip juice you are always talking about?

Well, until it's proven otherwise in court, I'll go along with the court's judgement. It is clear the matter was examined thoroughly and they are far more qualified then you or any of the other armchair detectives and self appointed experts, don't you think?

Yes, the cottage was thoroughly searched, inventoried and Filomena and Laura testified the cottage was never cleaned with products containing bleach. Why, have you got another candidate it may be? The best suggestion the defence could come up with was 'maybe fruit juice', so unless you're expecting us to accept it as a remotely probable that Amanda and Raffaele were paddling around the cottage barefoot in fruit juice (which they have never claimed by the way), do you have a better candidate?

 

[RoseMontague]

Her family took it down.

But it's okay, we can pretend it never existed if it makes you feel better.

It wasn't anything more than an e-mail to a friend of hers in Washington, not on her myspace page where she outlines all the plane and train trips where no sex with a stranger occurred. It is just another vicious rumor and if you are unable to provide a quote of the email then it will remain so. Her unedited version of that trip on her myspace page was copied and there was no sex with a stranger on a train.

You can pretend it is true and believable if it makes you feel better.