Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Amanda lived there

Then what innocent explnation do you give for Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood in four different instances in the house?

The date at which DNA arrived on an object cannot be ascertained by its detection in DNA forensic analysis. If you brush or floss your teeth, I expect that you will deposit DNA wherever you spit or wherever you toothbrush sits. My explanation is that Meredith's blood was deposited on Amanda's biological matter. Other factors may also come into play. Charlie Wilkes explains it in terms of Stefanoni's swabbing technique. In addition, by not changing gloves, she has increased the odds of carrying material from one point to the next.

 

[Mary_H]

No it isn't. You are reading a lot more into the statement then what it actually says.

I think most attorneys would agree with Antony's and Supernaut's takes on this and disagree with yours. It is very probable that statement could be used to show that the police "changed Amanda's mind."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

errors in your citation

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index...he_prosecution_4_amanda_knoxs_multiple_confl/

Try this for "documentation".
Where is your own documentation?

Loverofzion,

The page you use as evidence said that Amanda’s evidence is undermined “by Sollecito’s denial that this is what happened (never amended or revoked)…” This is false. Sollecito backed up her alibi in front of Judge Matteini (Darkness Descending and Murder in Italy both agree on this point) and that remains his last statement before a court.

Your citation also made this statement, “Second, they had claimed they had called the police emergency 112 number before the national communication police arrived, but there was no evidence of such calls then.” That is a highly misleading version of events. Even Massei does not try to argue this point.

Your citation continues, “Here for the sake of clarity is a summary of each of the statements.” The summaries leave out key statements. Shall we go on, or do you concede that your citation is flawed and biased?

 

[LondonJohn]

Then what innocent explnation do you give for Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood in four different instances in the house?
And the police saying she buckled means she was brought down from her lying evasiveness "I can't remember"s and told a credible account, i.e. that she was present.

There is no mention of coercion in the policeman's statement.

No. Let's look once again - slowly - at what Perugia Police Chief Arturo de Felice said to newspaper reporters on the 6th or 7th November 2007:

"Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them all in."

Focus on the following word constructions:

"...version of events we knew was not correct"

"..buckled.."

"...facts we knew were correct"

What de Felici is saying here is that BEFORE Knox started her interrogation (supposedly as a witness, incidentally!!) on the late night of the 5th November, the Police "knew" that she had been lying about spending the whole evening/night at Sollecito's apartment. Furthermore, de Felici is also saying that BEFORE Knox started this interrogation, the Police "knew" that she had met up with Lumumba (or, at the very least, with the as-yet-unknown recipient of the text message - although I believe the Police already knew this was Lumumba).

And the word "buckled" is a very interesting one - notwithstanding translation issues. It clearly implies that Knox was placed under pressure. People (or steel bars or bridges) do not "buckle" unless they are placed under high stresses. It's therefore very instructive that de Felice did not say anything like: "Knox suddenly changed her story". He said she "buckled".

With all this in mind, I would argue that it's virtually impossible to conclude anything but the following from de Felice's telling statement of the 6th/7th November:

1) The police went into the Knox interrogation of the night of the 5th/6th November "knowing" that she had been lying to them about spending the evening/night of the 1st at Sollecito's apartment.

2) The reason why they "knew" she was lying is that they "knew" that Knox had instead met up with the recipient of the "see you later" text message - whom I believe the police had already identified as Lumumba.

3) The police went into that interrogation "knowing" that since Knox had - in their eyes - lied about her movements and meetings on the night of the 1st, she must have been lying to cover her involvement in the murder.

4) The police therefore went into that interrogation "knowing" that Knox and the text message recipient (Lumumba) had met up on the night of the 1st and had and gone to the cottage, where one or both of them killed Meredith.

5) If 1-4 are correct, it's impossible to disregard the strong suspicion that the police confronted Knox in that interrogation (she was "still a witness", remember!!!), told her that they had proof she had lied to them about her whereabouts and actions on the night of the 1st, and told her to "come clean" and tell them "what really happened" - which they already, of course, "knew".

6) The police then apparently told Knox that she could have had a mental blackout during these high-trauma events, but that she had to force herself to remember them. The police interpreter herself apparently admits that she told Knox this was a documented phenomenon, and that Knox should try to remember (in complete breach of her position as an interpreter).

7) The police very likely suggested to Knox that "perhaps" she wasn't directly involved in the murder - probably to make it easier for her to "remember". I believe that she may even have been explicitly asked to imagine that she was covering her ears to block out the screams.

8) Knox then "buckled" and agreed with the scenario which the police "knew" to be correct - that she and Lumumba had met up that night and gone to the cottage, where Lumumba had forced himself on Meredith and killed her, while Knox cowered in the kitchen and covered her ears.

Of equal interest is that de Felici bragged to reporters at the same time as making this "we knew" statement that the inquiry into Meredith's murder was "concluded":

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2821154.ece

This was on the 6th/7th November, remember - before the police had any forensic results back, and before they had properly investigated their suspects. Indeed, they subsequently released one of the three whom they "knew" was involved in this "concluded" case - Lumumba - when he lucked out with a cast-iron alibi from an unimpeachable university professor.

Astonishing. Truly astonishing.

 

[Malkmus]

No it isn't. You are reading a lot more into the statement then what it actually says.

Actually, I think it's the first line that's more damaging. "Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct,"

This means they never believed Amanda when she said she was at Raf's that night. When they say she "buckled", what do you think that means? They didn't like the version she gave them "initially" and then she "buckled". Amazer, what do you think happened in between those two quoted words?

 

[LondonJohn]

The date at which DNA arrived on an object cannot be ascertained by its detection in DNA forensic analysis. If you brush or floss your teeth, I expect that you will deposit DNA wherever you spit or wherever you toothbrush sits. My explanation is that Meredith's blood was deposited on Amanda's biological matter. Other factors may also come into play. Charlie Wilkes explains it in terms of Stefanoni's swabbing technique. In addition, by not changing gloves, she has increased the odds of carrying material from one point to the next.

Someone made an interesting point elsewhere (can't remember who or where!) about further potential forensic contamination. It seems from the crime scene forensic examination videos that it took quite some time for Guede's shoe prints in the hallway (which were certainly made in Meredith's blood) to be discovered. And in the period before they were noticed, all the forensics personnel walked through the hallway without precaution, and without changing their shoe covers. This therefore presents the very real possibility that they picked up some of Meredith's blood from Guede's shoe prints in the hallway, and transferred it to other areas of the house - notably Filomena's room.

 

[Malkmus]

Who said they had no time to record the interrogations?

This was covered way back, Lover.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6186593#post6186593

Not only was Mignini's excuse for not recording the interrogation lacking in reason, he admits to recording the interrogations of the witnesses and roommates.

 

[Mary_H]

This was covered way back, Lover.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6186593#post6186593

Not only was Mignini's excuse for not recording the interrogation lacking in reason, he admits to recording the interrogations of the witnesses and roommates.

Italian law requires recording of suspect statements, so anything Amanda said or did once she was arrested (before signing the initial confession) needed to be recorded. Also, Italian law requires recording of witness statements if the witness's mobility is restricted, so it could be argued that anything she said or did before she was arrested needed to be recorded as well, since she didn't know she was free to go.

 

[Antony]

No it isn't. You are reading a lot more into the statement then what it actually says.

The quote is: "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew to be true." (The "facts" that Felici is referring to here are the allegations against Patrick Lumumba, later attributed by police to Amanda. Bear in mind Felici's statement was made at the time of the arrest of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick, 2 weeks before Rudy Guede came on the scene.)

How, exactly, is a different interpretation of Felici's statement from mine possible?

 

[loverofzion]

Italian law requires recording of suspect statements, so anything Amanda said or did once she was arrested (before signing the initial confession) needed to be recorded. Also, Italian law requires recording of witness statements if the witness's mobility is restricted, so it could be argued that anything she said or did before she was arrested needed to be recorded as well, since she didn't know she was free to go.

Including on a Q tip?
Now how would Amanda's DNA get mixed with Meredith's blood on a Q tip for God's sakes?

 

[RoseMontague]

The quote is: "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew to be true." (The "facts" that Felici is referring to here are the allegations against Patrick Lumumba, later attributed by police to Amanda. Bear in mind Felici's statement was made at the time of the arrest of Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick, 2 weeks before Rudy Guede came on the scene.)

How, exactly, is a different interpretation of Felici's statement from mine possible?

I guess she buckled under the pleasant conversation and nice food provided by the friendly police peoples. Or maybe they threatened her with bringing up a q-tip while they were talking about the weather or something else entirely.

 

[Malkmus]

Fulcanelli has decided to respond to my post about Rudy's evidence versus that against Amanda and Rafaelle. Fiona has also decided to challenge us (JREF members) to answer his post, although I can't understand why she thinks we've never discussed this before or why we would be afraid to answer it now, as obviously I'm about to. I'd also like to put it out there now that I don't shy away from any questions relating to my standpoint on this case, and welcome any and all questions.

Fulcanelli writes:

Malkmus wrote:
It doesn't seem strange to you that each piece of forensics evidence, and even most of the circumstantial evidence against Amanda and Raf comes with some sort of glaring caveat? Unlike the evidence against Rudy which is cut and dry and has no caveats.

Well, this is completely untrue. Just because everybody is agreed that Rudy is guilty of involvement, it simply means nobody is 'attempting' to hand wave the evidence against him away with "caveats". However, were we of a mind to, we can come up with a perfectly similar bunch of dumb caveats to explain away Rudy's evidence. Allow me to demonstrate:

1. Rudy's DNA on the Handbag.

Caveat: This was not collected until 47 days later. Contamination or planted. (Does this one sound familiar?)

2. Rudy's DNA on Meredith's sleave of her top.

Caveat: This was not collected until 47 days later. Contamination or planted. (does this one sound familiar?)

3. Rudy's DNA inside Meredith.

Caveat: This is even weaker then LCN DNA. Rudy's profile wasn't found inside Meredith, only his haplotype which is shared by thousands or even hundreds of thousands of males. (the 'dodgy DNA' caveat...does this one sound familiar?)

4. Hand print on pillow.

Caveat: Rudy offers an innocent explanation for this. He picked up the pillow to help Meredith.

5. Rudy's shoe prints.

Caveat: Only proves he was there, which he admits and offers an explanation for. It also shows he left directly. It supports his story.

6. Rudy's crap in the toilet.

Caveat: Proves only he was there and actually supports his story. His story of being on the toilet while Meredith was attacked is possible and therefore gives reasonable doubt. All of the evidence against him is purely circumstantial and all has an innocent alternative explanation that is 'possible', therefore reasonable doubt...ergo, Rudy should be declared innocent and acquitted. (possible = reasonable doubt...sound familiar?)


I could go on with the list of everything else against him but I think that's nearly all of it and it's enough to make the point, which is quite important. Were WE of a mind to declare Rudy innocent we could make an argument for it since every piece of evidence against him does indeed have a possible caveat and some of those caveats would mirror the arguments you people make.

JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T MAKING A CASE COMPRISED OF STUPID ARGUMENTS TO DECLARE RUDY INNOCENT AS YOU PEOPLE ARE DOING WITH AMANDA AND RAFFAELE, IT DOESN'T MEAN ONE COULDN'T EASILY BE MADE AND IT WOULD BE NO LESS CONVINCING THEN YOURS!

Fulcanelli (or Michael, whichever you prefer), creating "caveats" for Rudy's evidence is an easy task, but meaningless when put into context. If the only reason to doubt the evidence of Raf's DNA on the bra was that it was collected at a later date, then it would be hard for anyone at this point to argue against it, especially knowing that so much other evidence was collected at that same time. What makes the bra evidence dubious is a multitude of things: The DNA is of the LCN variety, collected at a much later date when there was no other piece of evidence to hold Rafaelle in prison for, the clasp was covered in dust and grime, and moved from its original location, it contained DNA profiles of other unknown individuals, it had no reason to have Raf's DNA on it if the contention is that it was cut off with a knife, and lastly, that it is the "only" piece of evidence placing Raf at the scene. If the bra was one of many other pieces of evidence against Raf, like we have against Rudy, it wouldn't seem so odd.
So your first two points don't mean much as "later collection date" is meaningless when we know through Rudy's own admission that he was there that night and that he was "physically active" with Meredith. There is no reason to doubt those pieces of evidence.

Rudy's DNA inside Meredith: Nothing questionable about that since we know from Rudy's own words that he was in some sort of sexual situation with Meredith, but that they "stopped" because he didn't have a condom.

The hand print on the pillow: Regardless of what his intent was, he was there that night. If Raf's or Amanda's handprint was found on the pillow, it would be a whole different story. But again, we don't have anything like that against the two do we? If there was anything like a handprint or the bloody fingerprint left by Rudy, that's all it would take to undoubtedly prove they were there that night.

The shoe prints "only" prove he was there?! Are you serious? They were bloody shoe prints. Again, if bloody shoe prints had been found of Raf or Amanda it would be a whole different story. The police tried though, didn't they. They tried to attribute Rudy's shoe prints to Raf, but that didn't work, oops. And they tried to attribute Rudy's wet footprint to Raf as well, but the match is inconclusive and makes no sense when you consider he pointed it out to police himself. oops again.

The crap in the toilet: Who needs it? We have plenty of other incriminating evidence against Rudy. And maybe it does corroborate his story about someone else killing Meredith, still doesn't make it Amanda or Raf does it now.

The evidence against Rudy versus Amanda and Raf is night and day, and you know it. There's no innocent explanation for any of his presence there that night. The question isn't whether Rudy was there that night since it is an indisputable fact. Not the same for Amanda and Raf. Comparing the evidence against Rudy by saying it only proves he was there is ridiculous because he didn't belong there. Yet, the evidence against Amanda that simply places her at the cottage is meaningless, because she lived there and the DNA can't be dated. You say you could go on and on with the comparisons. Let's hear it then.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

It wasn't tea and scones

I guess she buckled under the pleasant conversation and nice food provided by the friendly police peoples. Or maybe they threatened her with bringing up a q-tip while they were talking about the weather or something else entirely.

Rose,

No, I think you are wrong there. They took out the olives and threatened to pelt her with them.

 

[Antony]

(msg #5658)
And the police saying she buckled means she was brought down from her lying evasiveness "I can't remember"s and told a credible account, i.e. that she was present.

There is no mention of coercion in the policeman's statement.

Of course de Felici didn't specifically use the word "coercion" (or any Italian equivalent). That's why I say that the coercion is implicit - it follows from words "she buckled". What methods do you think the police used to "bring down" Amanda from her original, supposedly "not correct" version, to one they "knew to be correct".

(It should be noted that the "facts they knew to be correct" were quite different from the narrative presented at the trial by the prosecution.)

 

[Mary_H]

I guess she buckled under the pleasant conversation and nice food provided by the friendly police peoples. Or maybe they threatened her with bringing up a q-tip while they were talking about the weather or something else entirely.

LOL, Rose -- I think he meant to address LondonJohn's post. He has done that before.

 

[Mary_H]

Rose,

No, I think you are wrong there. They took out the olives and threatened to pelt her with them.

She didn't need their olives; she still had some of Kokomani's in her pockets from the night of the murder.

 

[LondonJohn]

Fulcanelli has decided to respond to my post about Rudy's evidence versus that against Amanda and Rafaelle. Fiona has also decided to challenge us (JREF members) to answer his post, although I can't understand why she thinks we've never discussed this before or why we would be afraid to answer it now, as obviously I'm about to. I'd also like to put it out there now that I don't shy away from any questions relating to my standpoint on this case, and welcome any and all questions.

Fulcanelli writes:



Fulcanelli (or Michael, whichever you prefer), creating "caveats" for Rudy's evidence is an easy task, but meaningless when put into context. If the only reason to doubt the evidence of Raf's DNA on the bra was that it was collected at a later date, then it would be hard for anyone at this point to argue against it, especially knowing that so much other evidence was collected at that same time. What makes the bra evidence dubious is a multitude of things: The DNA is of the LCN variety, collected at a much later date when there was no other piece of evidence to hold Rafaelle in prison for, the clasp was covered in dust and grime, and moved from its original location, it contained DNA profiles of other unknown individuals, it had no reason to have Raf's DNA on it if the contention is that it was cut off with a knife, and lastly, that it is the "only" piece of evidence placing Raf at the scene. If the bra was one of many other pieces of evidence against Raf, like we have against Rudy, it wouldn't seem so odd.
So your first two points don't mean much as "later collection date" is meaningless when we know through Rudy's own admission that he was there that night and that he was "physically active" with Meredith. There is no reason to doubt those pieces of evidence.

Rudy's DNA inside Meredith: Nothing questionable about that since we know from Rudy's own words that he was in some sort of sexual situation with Meredith, but that they "stopped" because he didn't have a condom.

The hand print on the pillow: Regardless of what his intent was, he was there that night. If Raf's or Amanda's handprint was found on the pillow, it would be a whole different story. But again, we don't have anything like that against the two do we? If there was anything like a handprint or the bloody fingerprint left by Rudy, that's all it would take to undoubtedly prove they were there that night.

The shoe prints "only" prove he was there?! Are you serious? They were bloody shoe prints. Again, if bloody shoe prints had been found of Raf or Amanda it would be a whole different story. The police tried though, didn't they. They tried to attribute Rudy's shoe prints to Raf, but that didn't work, oops. And they tried to attribute Rudy's wet footprint to Raf as well, but the match is inconclusive and makes no sense when you consider he pointed it out to police himself. oops again.

The crap in the toilet: Who needs it? We have plenty of other incriminating evidence against Rudy. And maybe it does corroborate his story about someone else killing Meredith, still doesn't make it Amanda or Raf does it now.

The evidence against Rudy versus Amanda and Raf is night and day, and you know it. There's no innocent explanation for any of his presence there that night. The question isn't whether Rudy was there that night since it is an indisputable fact. Not the same for Amanda and Raf. Comparing the evidence against Rudy by saying it only proves he was there is ridiculous because he didn't belong there. Yet, the evidence against Amanda that simply places her at the cottage is meaningless, because she lived there and the DNA can't be dated. You say you could go on and on with the comparisons. Let's hear it then.

I'd go further. The accumulated physical evidence firmly places Guede in the girls' cottage at or very shortly after the murder. Now, Guede has a story which largely exonerates him of any involvement in the murder itself. But if one is to believe this story, then one has to believe that Guede "tended" to Meredith as she died, yet neglected to call for help of any kind. And one has to believe that Guede was traumatised by what he'd seen happen to Meredith, yet went out clubbing shortly afterwards. And one has to believe that Guede's only guilt the following day was in not getting help for Meredith, yet he took off immediately by train to Milan then onwards to Germany, in what can only be termed a classic flight from the scene.

From all of this, it's perfectly obvious to deduce that Guede played a major role in whatever happened in that cottage on that horrible night. His presence at the scene, coupled with his actions after the crime, make that an inescapable conclusion to draw. As such, I don't think anyone should need to trouble themselves too much in believing his various (and varied) fables about that night.

 

[Dan O.]

You acknowledge that Amanda was "officially" declared a suspect at 1:45. Did she sign the statement after she became a suspect? Was her lawyer present when she signed that statement at 1:45? Was her lawyer present for the subsequent interrogation which ended with another statement being signed at 5:45?

Have you actually read the letter that Amanda wrote the next day?

Awfully suspicious in my book that one minute she's asleep in a cannibus induced amnesia with her boyfriend; the next she's at the cottage while Patrick is assaulting Meredith!
Until then the police had no reason to believe there had been any other person besides AK and RS involved, so there was no "coercion" or "fasle confession" due to mistreatment.

By trying to evade the direct questions you stated that Amanda and Raffaele were "suspects" before they were brought in for questioning on Nov. 5th. Is that really what you intended to do?

Read the attached timeline.

If the author of the PMF/TJMF timeline wants to argue its accuracy here they will need to create an account and come here in person to argue it. Arguments by proxy are forbidden per the JREF membership agreement.

If you wish to discuss the timeline, I don't need the PMF/TJMF version since I have my own:

1 November 2007

00:02:41 Raffaele called father using landline (262 sec) - Massei Report pg 343
00:41:49 Amanda calls unidentified person (local number) (20 seconds) - Massei Report pg 345
00:57:20 Amanda receives SMS from Raffaele
cell Via dell'Aquila 5-Tower sett.3 Aqueduct - Massei Report pg 345
01:04:58 Amanda receives call from 075/9660789
(cell located in Piazza Dante 26) - Massei Report pg 345
15:48 Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them (PT)
16:50 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
16:56 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
18:21:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
18:27:50 Meredith (Vodafone) sent an SMS to 348-4673711 engaging the cell Piazza Luppatelli week. 7.
(The signal is received at Via della Pergola 7.) - Massei Report Pg 348
18:29:05 Meredith received a text message from 388-8921724 (hooking the same cell as above)
19:30 TG3 news report starts; Guede claims he left home shortly after the program started.
Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
19:53 First sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [1]
20:18:12 Lumumba sent text message to Knox saying she didn't need to come to work.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie (129min)
(time? source?)
20:22 Second sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Guede's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. CCTV time stamp is 20:10. [2]
20:35:48 Knox responds with text message to Lumumba.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
(cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at RS's place.[3]
Jovana Popovic of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Popovic went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. (Did Amanda answer the door because Raffaele was on the phone?)
Amanda says this was before they started watching Amile (Amanda testimony)
Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
"AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
20:42:56 Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
(cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
(PT=20:45)
Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
"In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009) [4]
Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
21:05 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. [5][6]
21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps.
21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial[7]\
21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
Massei Report pg 350
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
22:13 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia. Cell tower may not be significant.
(Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
Time approximate, Alessandra Formica and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy Guede".[8]
22:30-23:00 - Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time.[9]
23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car.
Time approximate. Gianfranco Lombardi was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[10]
[edit]2 November 2007

02:00 Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
Source?
06:02:59 Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
(cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
09:24 Raffaele receives call from father (248 seconds) - Massei Report pg 342
09:29 Raffaele receives call from undisclosed caller (38 seconds)
09:30 Raffaele call from father (cont?) (cell Via Belardi week. 7) - Massei Report pg 342
10:30 Knox returns to cottage.
From Knox testimony.
12:07:12 Knox calls Meredith's phone with UK number (16 seconds).
Time from phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Eagle Street 5-Torre sett.9 Aqueduct) Massei Report pg 346
12:08:44 Knox call Filomena Romanelli (68 seconds).
From Knox phone records.
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) - Massei Report pg 346
12:11 Knox calls phone Meredith borrowed from Filomena.
From Knox phone records.
12:11:02 Meredith (Vodafone) received call from Amanda (3 seconds) call directed to voicemail
(Vodafone committed by users of Meredith is located in Strada Vicinale S. Mary of the Hill area 1 )
from Massei Report pg 346, 348
12:11:54 (4 seconds) Amanda repeats call to Meredith UK phone
from Amanda's phone record
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) Massei Reoprt pg 348
12:20:44 Filomena calls Amanda.
From Knox phone records
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.9) Massei report pg 348
12:34:56 Filomena calls Amanda (48 seconds)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage.
Looked at his watch according to testimony. (source?)
12:35 Raffaele calls service center to recharge minutes
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:38 Raffaele receives SMS confirmation
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:40 Raffaele receives call from father (67 seconds)
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:46 Postal Police sent off from their HQ after the second phone arrived.
Source?
12:47:23 Knox calls her mother, Edda Mellas. (88 seconds)
From Knox phone records. No mention of police being at cottage. (source?)
(cell cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:50:34 Raffaele Sollecito calls his sister Vanessa Sollecito (39 seconds).
Source phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page. Vanessa, a lieutenant in the Carabinieri, tells RS to dial 112.
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito calls 112, Italian emergency number. (169 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Eagle Tower Aqueduct sett.l)
12:54 RS makes second call to 112. (57 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Square Luppatelli week 7)
13:00 Postal Police arrive.
Car park video shows black car driving past a couple of times, then someone walking across the street at 12:48. Adjust 12 minutes as camera time was off.
Car in video is a black Fiat Punto.[11] Same vehicle police claimed to have been driving at trial. (Source?)
Arrival could also be interpreted at 12:41 camera time, actually 12:53. While RS was phoning 112.
13:05 Filemena and friends get to cottage.
Estimated, Source?
Meredith's door is kicked in, postal police kick everybody out
13:17:10 Meredith's (Vodaphone) received call from 447853133067 (1 second)
(cell Vicinale S. Maria della Strada Collina week. 7) - Massei Report pg 338
13:24:18 Knox calls Edda again. (2.7 min)
From Knox phone records. Mentions police have arrived (source?).
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:27:32 Knox calls Seattle. (0.4 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:29:00 call from police, lasts 5 minutes.
From Knox phone records. (Asking directions?)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7)
13:34 Carabinieri arrive?
Assuming end of phone call for directions is same as arrival time. If true, parking lot camera is about 12 minutes slow. Prosecution has been claiming it's 10 minutes fast, but has never explained why.
13:40:12 Raffaele receives call from father
(Cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.l)
13:50 Raffaele receives call from father (178 seconds)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) - Massei Report pg 342
13:58:33 Knox calls Edda. (One second call)
From Knox phone records.
13:59:06 Knox calls Seattle. (5.9 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
14:33 Raffaele receives call from father (21 seconds)
14:46:14 (102 seconds) Knox is called by Aunt Dorothy Craft, her mother's cousin living in Germany.
Fron Knox phone records.
(no cell location is given) Massei Report pg 347
15:13:43 Meredith's Vodafone receives second call from 447853133067 (5 seconds)
(no cell location is reported) - Massei Report pg 338, 348
15:30 Knox signs a statement at police station.
Mentioned in trial testimony.
15:31:51 Amanda receives SMS from 389/1531078
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2 where is located the police) Massei Report pg 347
17:01 Raffaele receives call from father (164 seconds)
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2, corresponding to the location of the police headquarters in Perugia)
17:42 Raffaele receives call from father (97 seconds)
​

This is a portion of the timeline that I have compiled. It is definitely incomplete and there may be errors. If anyone has additions or corrections I would appreciate the update.

 

[RoseMontague]

If you wish to discuss the timeline, I don't need the PMF/TJMF version since I have my own:

1 November 2007

00:02:41 Raffaele called father using landline (262 sec) - Massei Report pg 343
00:41:49 Amanda calls unidentified person (local number) (20 seconds) - Massei Report pg 345
00:57:20 Amanda receives SMS from Raffaele
cell Via dell'Aquila 5-Tower sett.3 Aqueduct - Massei Report pg 345
01:04:58 Amanda receives call from 075/9660789
(cell located in Piazza Dante 26) - Massei Report pg 345
15:48 Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them (PT)
16:50 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
16:56 Raffaele is called by his father.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
18:21:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
18:27:50 Meredith (Vodafone) sent an SMS to 348-4673711 engaging the cell Piazza Luppatelli week. 7.
(The signal is received at Via della Pergola 7.) - Massei Report Pg 348
18:29:05 Meredith received a text message from 388-8921724 (hooking the same cell as above)
19:30 TG3 news report starts; Guede claims he left home shortly after the program started.
Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
19:53 First sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [1]
20:18:12 Lumumba sent text message to Knox saying she didn't need to come to work.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie (129min)
(time? source?)
20:22 Second sighting of figure thought to be Guede on car park CCTV camera, adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defence's theory.
He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Guede's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. CCTV time stamp is 20:10. [2]
20:35:48 Knox responds with text message to Lumumba.
Time established by phone records on Amanda Knox page. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
(cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at RS's place.[3]
Jovana Popovic of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Popovic went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. (Did Amanda answer the door because Raffaele was on the phone?)
Amanda says this was before they started watching Amile (Amanda testimony)
Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
"AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
20:42:56 Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
Time established by phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page.
(cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
(PT=20:45)
Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
"In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009) [4]
Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
21:05 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. [5][6]
21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
Time approximate, based on walk since leaving Sophie. Also matches up with female figure seen walking towards cottage gate on car park video at 20:43. Prosecution claims clock is 10 minutes fast, see 13:34 on Nov. 2 for why it's probably 12 minutes slow. Video available on web is cropped and doesn't show camera timestamps.
21:10 Last human interaction with RS's computer during this night.
Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial[7]\
21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
21:58 Attempt to call voice mail (from phone memory)
Massei Report pg 350
22:00 Kercher's phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
22:13 Kercher's mobile phone had received a picture message.
Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia. Cell tower may not be significant.
(Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
Time approximate, Alessandra Formica and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy Guede".[8]
22:30-23:00 - Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
Time approximate. Pasqualino Coletta (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time.[9]
23:00 Mechanic comes for broken down car.
Time approximate. Gianfranco Lombardi was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[10]
[edit]2 November 2007

02:00 Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
Source?
06:02:59 Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
(cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
09:24 Raffaele receives call from father (248 seconds) - Massei Report pg 342
09:29 Raffaele receives call from undisclosed caller (38 seconds)
09:30 Raffaele call from father (cont?) (cell Via Belardi week. 7) - Massei Report pg 342
10:30 Knox returns to cottage.
From Knox testimony.
12:07:12 Knox calls Meredith's phone with UK number (16 seconds).
Time from phone records on Amanda Knox page.
(cell Eagle Street 5-Torre sett.9 Aqueduct) Massei Report pg 346
12:08:44 Knox call Filomena Romanelli (68 seconds).
From Knox phone records.
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) - Massei Report pg 346
12:11 Knox calls phone Meredith borrowed from Filomena.
From Knox phone records.
12:11:02 Meredith (Vodafone) received call from Amanda (3 seconds) call directed to voicemail
(Vodafone committed by users of Meredith is located in Strada Vicinale S. Mary of the Hill area 1 )
from Massei Report pg 346, 348
12:11:54 (4 seconds) Amanda repeats call to Meredith UK phone
from Amanda's phone record
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) Massei Reoprt pg 348
12:20:44 Filomena calls Amanda.
From Knox phone records
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.9) Massei report pg 348
12:34:56 Filomena calls Amanda (48 seconds)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage.
Looked at his watch according to testimony. (source?)
12:35 Raffaele calls service center to recharge minutes
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:38 Raffaele receives SMS confirmation
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
12:40 Raffaele receives call from father (67 seconds)
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:46 Postal Police sent off from their HQ after the second phone arrived.
Source?
12:47:23 Knox calls her mother, Edda Mellas. (88 seconds)
From Knox phone records. No mention of police being at cottage. (source?)
(cell cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
12:50:34 Raffaele Sollecito calls his sister Vanessa Sollecito (39 seconds).
Source phone records on Raffaele Sollecito page. Vanessa, a lieutenant in the Carabinieri, tells RS to dial 112.
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito calls 112, Italian emergency number. (169 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Eagle Tower Aqueduct sett.l)
12:54 RS makes second call to 112. (57 seconds)
From RS phone records.
(cell Square Luppatelli week 7)
13:00 Postal Police arrive.
Car park video shows black car driving past a couple of times, then someone walking across the street at 12:48. Adjust 12 minutes as camera time was off.
Car in video is a black Fiat Punto.[11] Same vehicle police claimed to have been driving at trial. (Source?)
Arrival could also be interpreted at 12:41 camera time, actually 12:53. While RS was phoning 112.
13:05 Filemena and friends get to cottage.
Estimated, Source?
Meredith's door is kicked in, postal police kick everybody out
13:17:10 Meredith's (Vodaphone) received call from 447853133067 (1 second)
(cell Vicinale S. Maria della Strada Collina week. 7) - Massei Report pg 338
13:24:18 Knox calls Edda again. (2.7 min)
From Knox phone records. Mentions police have arrived (source?).
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:27:32 Knox calls Seattle. (0.4 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
13:29:00 call from police, lasts 5 minutes.
From Knox phone records. (Asking directions?)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7)
13:34 Carabinieri arrive?
Assuming end of phone call for directions is same as arrival time. If true, parking lot camera is about 12 minutes slow. Prosecution has been claiming it's 10 minutes fast, but has never explained why.
13:40:12 Raffaele receives call from father
(Cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.l)
13:50 Raffaele receives call from father (178 seconds)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) - Massei Report pg 342
13:58:33 Knox calls Edda. (One second call)
From Knox phone records.
13:59:06 Knox calls Seattle. (5.9 min)
From Knox phone records.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
14:33 Raffaele receives call from father (21 seconds)
14:46:14 (102 seconds) Knox is called by Aunt Dorothy Craft, her mother's cousin living in Germany.
Fron Knox phone records.
(no cell location is given) Massei Report pg 347
15:13:43 Meredith's Vodafone receives second call from 447853133067 (5 seconds)
(no cell location is reported) - Massei Report pg 338, 348
15:30 Knox signs a statement at police station.
Mentioned in trial testimony.
15:31:51 Amanda receives SMS from 389/1531078
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2 where is located the police) Massei Report pg 347
17:01 Raffaele receives call from father (164 seconds)
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2, corresponding to the location of the police headquarters in Perugia)
17:42 Raffaele receives call from father (97 seconds)
​

This is a portion of the timeline that I have compiled. It is definitely incomplete and there may be errors. If anyone has additions or corrections I would appreciate the update.

Looks like you have made some improvements and additions since I last saw your timelines, and I was saying even then you had some of the best timelines I have seen anywhere. I think it is clear that you have made an effort to be very objective with this, in contrast to other timelines I have seen from both sides. For that reason I don't think I will make any suggested changes using the appeals as a source. Good job, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Then what innocent explnation do you give for Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood in four different instances in the house?

Amanda lives there. That is an innocent explanation for her DNA being found anywhere in that house (especially given the poor collection techniques demonstrably used by Stefanoni).

Do you now acknowledge that the positive DNA results for Amanda mixed with Meredith's blood prove nothing? If not, why not?