Castro says "Cuban model of Communism doesn't work"

[Cuddles]

That's not quite what he asked for; he asked the Soviets to retaliate with a preemptive nuclear strike if the US invaded Cuba

I'm not convinced it's possible to retaliate preemptively.

Nah. Communism failed because it's ass. Find one example that suggests otherwise.

Cuba

Remember how this thread was started because the person who was in charge of Cuba for the last several decades has just admitted that communism in Cuba has failed? That would suggest that Cuba may not be the best example of communism not failing.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

So 50 years of US sanctions had nothing to do with any of that?

Bingo.

Incidentally that's also why I think he can say that communism doesn't work any more, without actually saying much. Communism worked for him a lot better when there still was an Eastern Bloc to trade with, it's working a lot less well when he's basically embargoed by everyone.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I'm not convinced it's possible to retaliate preemptively.




Remember how this thread was started because the person who was in charge of Cuba for the last several decades has just admitted that communism in Cuba has failed? That would suggest that Cuba may not be the best example of communism not failing.

As I was saying, he didn't necessarily say that. He said it's not working any more. The way I read it, he doesn't say that it never worked. And there have been enough geopolitical changes by now so he can say the former without needing to admit the latter too.

 

[Chris L]

when he's basically embargoed by everyone.

But he isn't. Cuba is free to deal with pretty much any other country but us.

 

[TraneWreck]

It is interesting that market reforms in communist nations are evidence that communism is a failure, but massive government intervention to save capitalist nations, as in the 1930's and recently, are not evidence that free markets are failures.

They free the market it's proof we're right. We constrain the market, it's proof we're right.

One also has to ignore historical reality to pretend like we had an actual communism vs. free market test case. Without exception, communist countries in the later half of the twentieth century came into existence because impoverished, abused peoples revolted against their domineering power structures, whether imperial (Vietnam) or local (Cuba).

If we said today that we wanted to see if democracy worked better than communism and compared China and Iraq, I think we can be fairly certain of the result. The most powerful, best functioning nations were democratic and capitalist before the Cold War, and America was obviously not destroyed in WWII, so we were able to rebuild our allies. The communist nations started pitiful and ended pitiful.

And since we're already getting the thoughtless "you hate 'merka," nonsense, no, I'm not arguing that communism is better, just that historical fact was such that it never really had much of a chance. Russia was the best opportunity, and Stalin made sure communism would be a total failure by basically culling everyone with an IQ over 100. I'm not sure that can be attributed to "communism" the ideology, save to the extent that its structure couldn't stop abuse by tyrants.

 

[TraneWreck]

But he isn't. Cuba is free to deal with pretty much any other country but us.

We wielded our massive influence to keep Cuba isolated from other nations, as well.

 

[bit_pattern]

But he isn't. Cuba is free to deal with pretty much any other country but us.

But anybody who dared trade with Cuba would be viewed as supporting the enemy by America, not a tag any potential partner would would to stuck with.

 

[MG1962]

Remember how this thread was started because the person who was in charge of Cuba for the last several decades has just admitted that communism in Cuba has failed? That would suggest that Cuba may not be the best example of communism not failing.

Well Castro is arguing that it is no longer working, not that it ever did. Cuba based a lot of its economy of agricultural products. As techniques have changed commodity prices have dropped, so the return becomes less and less

Because of the embargo the technology gap continued to widen to the point Cuba could not compete any more on the world market, and with out currency could not buy what it needed to either diversify or modernise its economy

Even before the revolution Cuba was only really known for two things, tourism and growing stuff.

 

[Chris L]

We wielded our massive influence to keep Cuba isolated from other nations, as well.

You mean nations like Canada?

 

[Chris L]

I ask because according to this page http://www.cubatourism.ca/cuba-faq/trade-relations-canada-cuba/, a number of technologically advanced nations seem to be doing business with Cuba.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I would remind everyone that in the heyday of the "Domino Effect" stupidity, even giving a nod to the commies as a legitimate regime could have funny consequences. Egypt's merely recognizing commie China as a state, well, that triggered some events and knee jerk reactions (granted, on both sides) that ultimately culminated in the Six Days War.

Or the accusation by a US corporation (the infamous United Fruit Company) that the democratically elected government of Guatemala might intend to align itself with the commie bloc, that was enough to make the USA coup Guatemala and install their own tin-horn dictator who's more properly aware of who the boss is. An act which ultimately resulted in all the guerilla warfare there and took decades to sort out. Note that almost no evidence was provided by the UFC that the regime there is actually having any kind of relations with the eastern bloc.

So, yes, I'd think that a lot of country got the idea that thumbing your nose at the USA and trading with the commies might be bad for your health. You might get a lead poisoning in .45 ACP.

 

[Ziggurat]

We wielded our massive influence to keep Cuba isolated from other nations, as well.

No we didn't. Which is why it's rather easy even for Americans to travel to Cuba.

But anybody who dared trade with Cuba would be viewed as supporting the enemy by America, not a tag any potential partner would would to stuck with.

Also not true.

Most countries didn't trade much with Cuba for the simple reason that Cuba never produced much to trade. But lots of countries do trade with Cuba, including Mexico, one of our largest trading partners. And of all the criticisms that Mexico gets in the US press (illegal immigration, corruption, drug trafficking), trading with Cuba is pretty much not even on the list.

 

[GreNME]

I ask because according to this page http://www.cubatourism.ca/cuba-faq/trade-relations-canada-cuba/, a number of technologically advanced nations seem to be doing business with Cuba.

You should proof-read your links that you use as evidence of your point. That page states that Canada is ranked fifth in exports to Cuba (meaning selling stuff to Cuba) after Spain, Venezuela, the US, and China.

Ranked after the US in exports to Cuba. Now, consider the US embargoes on Cuba. Care to explain how the only nation that exports more stuff to Cuba than the US happens to also be a communist nation?

 

[TraneWreck]

I ask because according to this page http://www.cubatourism.ca/cuba-faq/trade-relations-canada-cuba/, a number of technologically advanced nations seem to be doing business with Cuba.

Because if it's true now, it must always have been so. And simply showing they do trade doesn't explain how much and whether it's limited.

Europe and Canada reacted quite strongly to the Helms-Burton act because it punished their corporations for doing business with Cuba. They first wanted it repealed, but negotiated a settlement. That settlement was a restriction on the type and amount of trade they would be able to do absent American interference.

The Title III of this law also states that any non-U.S. company that "knowingly trafficks in property in Cuba confiscated without compensation from a U.S. person" can be subjected to litigation and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This restriction also applies to maritime shipping, as ships docking at Cuban ports are not allowed to dock at U.S. ports for six months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

Our embargos are weaker now than they were in the 60's and 70's. We had Cuba expelled from the Organization of American States (they weren't reisntated until 2009), and we continue to affect the ability of other nations to do business, though less severly now than in the past.

 

[BenBurch]

The minute Cuba trade opens up I am mortgaging my house, flying to Havana, and buying every automobile I can. The place is a museum of 50's cars.

 

[WildCat]

Are those goalposts heavy?

Not that your moving of goalposts was very good.

He didn't move the goalposts, he just pointed out that your goalposts weren't even on the playing field.

Cuba isn't like China and Vietnam, both of which embraced capitalism years ago while Cuba hasn't.

 

[WildCat]

Bingo.

Incidentally that's also why I think he can say that communism doesn't work any more, without actually saying much. Communism worked for him a lot better when there still was an Eastern Bloc to trade with, it's working a lot less well when he's basically embargoed by everyone.

Who besides the US has an embargo on Cuba?

 

[WildCat]

It is interesting that market reforms in communist nations are evidence that communism is a failure, but massive government intervention to save capitalist nations, as in the 1930's and recently, are not evidence that free markets are failures.

It's actually the standard of living in communist vs. capitalist nations that proves communism is a failure.

The US today, in the midst of a deep recession, is far healthier economically than Cuba is or ever was under Castro.

 

[WildCat]

You mean nations like Canada?

Of course! Don't you remember how Canada was deemed an enemy nation? Troops are massed at the border as I write this!

 

[WildCat]

I ask because according to this page http://www.cubatourism.ca/cuba-faq/trade-relations-canada-cuba/, a number of technologically advanced nations seem to be doing business with Cuba.

There you go, letting facts get in the way of the histrionics and strawmen.