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Castro says "Cuban model of Communism doesn't work"

ravdin said:
You'd think that before making a pronouncement like that, he'd spare a thought for the useful idiots in the USA who have defended him all these years. This is the thanks they get. How ungrateful!
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Hate to say it, but you probably live within a few blocks of a lot of those useful idiots, judging from the posters I see whenever I am doing a bookshop crawl along Telegraph Avenue in Berkely....
 
Puppycow said:
He also said that, in hindsight, he shouldn't have asked Khruschev to nuke America during the Cuban missile crisis. I'm glad Khruschev had a different opinion too.
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That's not quite what he asked for; he asked the Soviets to retaliate with a preemptive nuclear strike if the US invaded Cuba:

"If the second variant takes place and the imperialists invade Cuba with the aim of occupying it, the dangers of their aggressive policy are so great that after such an invasion the Soviet Union must never allow circumstances in which the imperialists could carry out a nuclear first strike against it. I tell you this because I believe that the imperialists' aggressiveness makes them extremely dangerous, and that if they manage to carry out an invasion of Cuba—a brutal act in violation of universal and moral law—then that would be the moment to eliminate this danger forever, in an act of the most legitimate self-defense. However, harsh and terrible the solution, there would be no other." - http://www.jfklibrary.org/jfkl/cmc/cmc_castro_khrushchev.html

There is some interesting backstory to this whole sordid mess. The USSR knew about the american missile bases in Turkey and other places in western Europe and wanted an effective counter. Curiously the american public did not know, and was encouraged to think that the soviet missiles in Cuba was an unprecedented and aggressive move.

At the time Castro was the target of various assassination plots and could not respond in any reasonable manner with conventional force without giving the US the pretext it needed for a fullblown invasion.

In return for their removal of missiles from Cuba the US had to withdraw missiles from Turkey.

The scariest part of the nuclear missile crisis wasn't made public until the late 90's; when it was revealed that a Soviet nuclear sub had almost fired nuclear torpedoes on american ships. They were running out of air and needed to surface, but misinterpreted signal charges(very small depth charges) as an actual attack. Of the 3 officers whose authorization was necessary to fire a nuclear torpedo only Vasili Arkhipov disagreed and managed to calm things down.

It's far from certain that a nuclear attack on american ships would have launched a fullblown nuclear war, but it's definite possibility.
 
soylent said:
The scariest part of the nuclear missile crisis wasn't made public until the late 90's; when it was revealed that a Soviet nuclear sub had almost fired nuclear torpedoes on american ships. They were running out of air and needed to surface, but misinterpreted signal charges(very small depth charges) as an actual attack. Of the 3 officers whose authorization was necessary to fire a nuclear torpedo only Vasili Arkhipov disagreed and managed to calm things down.

It's far from certain that a nuclear attack on american ships would have launched a fullblown nuclear war, but it's definite possibility.
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A nuclear torpedo to sink a ship? Talk about overkill!
 
I find the posts in this thread fascinating, and an excellent example of just how well indoctrination works on an otherwise reasonably-intelligent population.

I've often listened to folks ramble in circles about how communism (or sometimes socialism) never works because the systems are unworkable, and the communist nations who failed did so because of communism, which is proof that communism (or sometimes socialism) doesn't work. It's a tautology that's so embedded in American thought that 20 years after the fall of the USSR Americans are still making arguments against the Evil Empire™. It's even mostly unconscious-- we don't do it with the direct intention to make an argument against a 20-years-gone government, it's just so intertwined with our foundational education that separating it would be like pulling teeth.

Don't get me wrong: I also think that a government based on communism is not likely going to be able to maintain any semblance of stability as a "communist" state, and that such a government is likely to dip in one of two authoritarian directions (totalitarian or fascist). However, in almost every case where I've had the opportunity to sit and ask someone to elaborate on why they might hold that type of opinion I've found that the reasoning tends to run in the tautological circle I mention above.

Germane to the thread: communism isn't what's crippled the Cuban state, sanctions and stunted commerce in response to Castro's affinity with out Cold War enemies was the reason for this. Trying to play the failing Cuban economy off as some kind of self-evidential proof against communism is a naive joke considering the direct meddling the US and some other countries took part in to undermine it (and arguably for good reason, so watch the jerky knees). It's as naively jingoist as assuming it was communism that caused the fall of the USSR, even though the US government was writing just as many checks it couldn't cash for practically as long. There is some tie-in to the actual criticisms of communism as a government and the conditions that led to the end of the USSR, but they're usually not what politicians, grade school teachers, or Joe Sixpack seems to claim. The failure of the Cuban economy and government wasn't simply because of communism, it was due to a concerted effort to make the Cuban government fail over the course of decades of undermining efforts (again, arguably for good reason). To even imply otherwise is foolish.
 
blah blah blah... It's the old "it's the US' fault" again... :rolleyes:

My theory is that for kooks like Castro, senility has the adverse effect than for the normal population. Instead of making them become demented, they actually start to make sense.
 
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Pardalis said:
blah blah blah... It's the old "it's the US' fault" again... :rolleyes:
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Blah blah blah the same old didn't read what I actually said and instead injected implications I never made.

For cryin out loud, it wasn't called the "Cold War" because we were competing over who could make the best tea and biscuits. There were (arguably good) reasons the US did what it did in the case of both the USSR and Cuba, so claims excluding the fact that there were active and deliberate efforts to cause them to fail is naive at best, incredibly ignorant at worst.

Or are you one of those who also is under the misconception that the US is the one who swooped in and saved the world from the Nazis?
 
GreNME said:
I find the posts in this thread fascinating, and an excellent example of just how well indoctrination works on an otherwise reasonably-intelligent population.

I've often listened to folks ramble in circles about how communism (or sometimes socialism) never works because the systems are unworkable, and the communist nations who failed did so because of communism, which is proof that communism (or sometimes socialism) doesn't work. It's a tautology that's so embedded in American thought that 20 years after the fall of the USSR Americans are still making arguments against the Evil Empire™. It's even mostly unconscious-- we don't do it with the direct intention to make an argument against a 20-years-gone government, it's just so intertwined with our foundational education that separating it would be like pulling teeth.

Don't get me wrong: I also think that a government based on communism is not likely going to be able to maintain any semblance of stability as a "communist" state, and that such a government is likely to dip in one of two authoritarian directions (totalitarian or fascist). However, in almost every case where I've had the opportunity to sit and ask someone to elaborate on why they might hold that type of opinion I've found that the reasoning tends to run in the tautological circle I mention above.

Germane to the thread: communism isn't what's crippled the Cuban state, sanctions and stunted commerce in response to Castro's affinity with out Cold War enemies was the reason for this. Trying to play the failing Cuban economy off as some kind of self-evidential proof against communism is a naive joke considering the direct meddling the US and some other countries took part in to undermine it (and arguably for good reason, so watch the jerky knees). It's as naively jingoist as assuming it was communism that caused the fall of the USSR, even though the US government was writing just as many checks it couldn't cash for practically as long. There is some tie-in to the actual criticisms of communism as a government and the conditions that led to the end of the USSR, but they're usually not what politicians, grade school teachers, or Joe Sixpack seems to claim. The failure of the Cuban economy and government wasn't simply because of communism, it was due to a concerted effort to make the Cuban government fail over the course of decades of undermining efforts (again, arguably for good reason). To even imply otherwise is foolish.
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Nah. Communism failed because it's ass. Find one example that suggests otherwise.
 
MRC_Hans said:
... Unfortunately, he also managed to freeze the society in a 1950es state, and set the economy on a slow, but steady decline.

Hans
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So 50 years of US sanctions had nothing to do with any of that?
 
So 50 years of US sanctions had nothing to do with any of that?
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What were the Cubans unable to get from every other nation on Earth? What do we produce that Cuba needs and can get from no one else?

Don't get me wrong, the embargo has clearly outlived whatever usefulness it had, and should have been lifted years ago. I just want to understand what (besides Castro's rhetoric) makes you think that an easily circumvented embargo could actually hurt the Cubans to the extent claimed.
 
Chris L said:
What were the Cubans unable to get from every other nation on Earth? What do we produce that Cuba needs and can get from no one else?

Don't get me wrong, the embargo has clearly outlived whatever usefulness it had, and should have been lifted years ago. I just want to understand what (besides Castro's rhetoric) makes you think that an easily circumvented embargo could actually hurt the Cubans to the extent claimed.
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Um, what extent was claimed? It contributed to the failure of the economy. It affected (and was intended to affect) commerce, trade, and the availability of goods and services.

That this is the case shouldn't even be a question from a historical accuracy point of view. There is certainly room for debate over why it was done and whether it should have been, but I care less about that fight than I do the revisionist mentality behind Cold War indoctrination. The USSR is gone, the Cold War over, and whatever justification for the indoctrination that existed has no rational purpose any more.
 
Chris L said:
What were the Cubans unable to get from every other nation on Earth? What do we produce that Cuba needs and can get from no one else?
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Quite a lot of products, once the USSR collapsed, oil being the most important...
 
Virus said:
Cuba is ass. China and Vietnam were ass until market reforms.

How are they good examples?
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Are those goalposts heavy?

Not that your moving of goalposts was very good. Not unless you can provide something better than calling something "ass" as if that's some kind of meaningful descriptor.

But please, continue the tautological game I talked about. You've managed to get almost all the way around the circle now, and should be able to complete it in one more reply.
 
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