• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
As I've said above, my view is that the police likely had a firm agenda for what they wanted to accomplish in their interviews with Knox and Sollecito that evening. I think (viz the police's own post-arrest statements) that the police already thought they knew who was involved in the murder - Knox, the recipient of her text message, and possibly also Sollecito.

I think it's possible they had the phone logs at that time, and were already targeting Lumumba. They knew he changed his SIM card, last communication Amanda had that night was with him, the fibers thought to be hair were not yet tested, and at some point the cell tower logs placed him at the cottage ( IIRC ).
 
Apparently, he didn't exactly change his story. It seems that the police put it to him that he could not be certain of Knox's whereabouts while he was sleeping, and he agreed with the police on that. This seemingly then morphed into the police telling Knox that Sollecito was no longer vouching for her whereabouts for a large portion of the night.

As I've said above, my view is that the police likely had a firm agenda for what they wanted to accomplish in their interviews with Knox and Sollecito that evening. I think (viz the police's own post-arrest statements) that the police already thought they knew who was involved in the murder - Knox, the recipient of her text message, and possibly also Sollecito. I think their goal therefore was to firstly get Sollecito to either crumble completely, or at the very least to admit that Knox could have left his apartment during the night without him knowing. Having obtained this latter concession from Sollecito, they could then confront Knox with two things: the text message which they felt certain was confirming a meeting with the recipient on the night of the 1st, and Sollecito's "change of story" in corroborating Knox's whereabouts.


How would they know the contents of the text message until they had her phone? At best they would only know a message was recieved and later one sent that night. Amanda's 'Gift' in the morning she states she doesn't know what evedince the police have that says she was at her house and why Raff lied to them about her, but she doesn't say what the lie was though. I'ld like to know what that lie was and how or why RS said it.
 
How would they know the contents of the text message until they had her phone? At best they would only know a message was recieved and later one sent that night.
That's plausible.
Amanda's 'Gift' in the morning she states she doesn't know what evedince the police have that says she was at her house and why Raff lied to them about her, but she doesn't say what the lie was though. I'ld like to know what that lie was and how or why RS said it.
They lied to her that they have evidence, and they either lied to her about what RS said or they lied to RS to get him somehow agree that she could have been not with him that night.

e.g. they said to him they have proof she was with some other guy, then they used "professional kindliness" methods to get him "remember" she went out for the night. Probably they failed to plant false memories in him, but made him confuse the night with some other, when Amanda was at work and he was at the computer.
 
Last edited:
I think Kevin_Lowe was quoting Fuji from a June 30, 2010 post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6081792&postcount=3080

If this is the same Fuji who posts at PMF his join date at that forum is July 16, 2010.

Thank you christianahannah. You are, of course, correct. I was only motivated to investigate, and then become a member of, PMF after noticing the many nasty diatribes that had been hurled at PMF members in this very thread. Kevin_Lowe was a particular catalyst.

So when you wrote "I should note that I do not post at the PMF forums", were you being, shall we say, "economical with the actualité"?

It seems ironic that one who claims to be so interested in "honest discussion" finds it impossible to be honest about where he has posted from one minute to the next. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should be more careful before making accusations of personal impropriety?
 
Well I would have thought that the same rules apply to any third-party discussions about the case, whether they be via an online forum, a newspaper article, a TV programme or a book. Clearly if it's not appropriate to discuss on this JREF thread what's being said on an online forum which is (nominally) dedicated to the case, then logically it must also be inappropriate to discuss on here what's being said in newspaper articles, book or TV shows about the case. Is there a difference then?


I don't know. Perhaps not. If you are saying that the only reason you ever bring up any of the issues under discussion on other fora is simply so that we may also discuss them here among ourselves then no, there isn't.

Is that the case?

If discussions in these threads are being taken advantage of as a backdoor platform to engage in some sort of remote dialogue with participants in those other fora (for whatever motives) then, yes, I think there is a difference. Perhaps not one which transgresses any forum rules, but certainly a difference.

Do you disagree?
 
I was only motivated to investigate, and then become a member of, PMF after noticing the many nasty diatribes that had been hurled at PMF members in this very thread.

Fuji,

How do you feel about nasty diatribes hurled by PMF members against JREF members?

In message #3322, you wrote, "Finally, I've seen no evidence that she [Amanda] was highly anxious, fearful, depressed, delusional, or otherwise psychologically disordered." I responded in message #3422, "Amanda’s cousin Dorothy recalled that Amanda was scared and confused, terrified that a murderer was on the loose (Murder in Italy, p. 131). She told her friend DJ that she was afraid to stay alone or to walk from Corso Garibaldi to her class (p.132). Her letter to her mother says that she needs to talk to her boss because she cannot work at night any longer (p. 133). She and Patrick met on the street on the afternoon of 5 November where she told him she would have to quit (p. 135)."

I do not recall seeing a response; therefore, should you chose to provide one now, I would be grateful.
 
Last edited:
Fuji,

How do you feel about nasty diatribes hurled by PMF members against JREF members?

I can speak for no one's actions but my own. That said, I would say it depends on the JREF member. I have personally had disparaging things to say at PMF about at least one JREF member, but you are not one of them. Even though I've disagreed with many of your conclusions, you conduct yourself with decorum and respect for your debating opponents.

In message #3322, you wrote, "Finally, I've seen no evidence that she [Amanda] was highly anxious, fearful, depressed, delusional, or otherwise psychologically disordered." I responded in message #3422, "Amanda’s cousin Dorothy recalled that Amanda was scared and confused, terrified that a murderer was on the loose (Murder in Italy, p. 131). She told her friend DJ that she was afraid to stay alone or to walk from Corso Garibaldi to her class (p.132). Her letter to her mother says that she needs to talk to her boss because she cannot work at night any longer (p. 133). She and Patrick met on the street on the afternoon of 5 November where she told him she would have to quit (p. 135)."

I do not recall seeing a response; therefore, should you chose to provide one now, I would be grateful.

My personal judgment is that Amanda Knox is someone who lies with ease and familiarity. I would not take anything she said at face value.
 
Hi all,
I just had to share a good laugh,
for I went to read up on my favorite guilter website, PMF,
and since I'm on a different computer,
just typed in:
http://perugiamurderfile.com/

Huh?!?
I thought, then smiled!

Have a great rest of your day,
RWVBWL


Too bad not 1 police officer or investigator recorded the interrogation of either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito on the night of Nov. 5+6, 2007...
 
One knife or two knives

_____________________________

Halides, this "information" about the kitchen knife is as common as the "information" about Amanda being fired, or demoted. So it's easy to understand why you would say that we know it.

However, here is what Massei says in the MOTIVATIONS REPORT about the compatibility of the kitchen knife with another stab wound.....


Examining the wound just below the most severe one [the most severe wound known to be compatible with the kitchen knife], Professor Cingolani had in fact noted and declared the following: "in the second lesion, the one that is 2 centimetres deep and 1.5 centimetres wide from corner to corner, the only thing that we are tempted to do, [albeit] in an absolutely amateurish/unprofessional way, because we only have photographs available, is to measure, assuming that only the tip entered, how wide the [kitchen knife] blade is [at a point] 2 centimetres from its tip: it is precisely 1.5 centimetres wide!" (pages 33 and 34, minutes of the incidente probatorio before the GIP on April 19, 2008).
See: PMF > Massei MOTIVATIONS REPORT > English Translation, page 291


It's clear that Massei concludes that the kitchen knife is compatible with this second stab wound, too. So is it suitable for you to say "we know" it is not? Massei is familiar with all the expert testimony on this matter, so maybe we should just call this a disputed subject?

///

Frank Sfarzo wrote, “Professor Cingolani has been stressed by basically everyone about the relation between wounds and knife. He has been treating, even with surprising positions, all minor wounds. Until Amanda Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova brought him to say something very clear about the main one: any single-edge knife is compatible with Meredith's larger wound.”

Frank reported on the defense’s summation, “If you want to kill, you can hardly stick a blade in to just half of its length, as we know. But here the blade went inside three times, as all experts agree. And it's impossible to go in three times with the same partial length. Just another of the many proofs that the Marietti knife is not the murder weapon.”

Frank Sfarzo reported on Professor Carlo Torre’s testimony, “As we figured out he buys Introna's idea that the stab wound on the right impacted against the jaw. He also agrees that the blade is no more than 8 centimeters long, since that's the depth of the larger wound. After establishing that the little blade made the larger wound as well, he pointed out that some signs left on the surface of the cut show a repeated movement of the blade in the wound.”

Frank discussed the testimony of Walter Patumi,
“Another simple concept was that when you want to kill, you strike a blow as strong as you can. You are not going to use just half of your blade, as the theory wants for the murder of Meredith. There's absolutely no possibility that knife can be the murder weapon --Patumi explained-- it would have severed her neck completely.”

Fine,

I don’t find Massei’s reasoning convincing, based on the comments above. Why should we focus on the portion of the kitchen knife that is 2 cm from the end? Is there any independent reason to suppose that this portion of the knife was used, or should we conclude that another knife, which is 1.5 cm in width at a point 3 cm from its end, is just as compatible with the wound?

But even if I did, it would still leave us with a situation in which a smaller knife is compatible with all three wounds and the bloody outline of a knife on Meredith’s bed versus a knife which is at best compatible with two out of the three wounds and not the outline. It is parsimonious to assume one knife, unless one is forced to accept two knives, and my thoughts on the knife DNA profile are well known.

Finally, I don’t think you do yourself any favors by comparing the issues surrounding the knife with the issues surrounding Patrick’s alleged firing of Amanda. The latter is simply untrue. The former is at least in the realm of expert opinion.
 
I don't know. Perhaps not. If you are saying that the only reason you ever bring up any of the issues under discussion on other fora is simply so that we may also discuss them here among ourselves then no, there isn't.

Is that the case?

If discussions in these threads are being taken advantage of as a backdoor platform to engage in some sort of remote dialogue with participants in those other fora (for whatever motives) then, yes, I think there is a difference. Perhaps not one which transgresses any forum rules, but certainly a difference.

Do you disagree?

Yes. And yes.
 
One idea that tends to get repeated a lot and that's worth correcting is the claim that the kitchen knife is "compatible" with one of the neck wounds. In fact, none of the three independent experts appointed by Judge Matteini would say the knife was "compatible"; they said it was "not incompatible", which is a step down even from the pretty slippery word "compatible". The only reason it was "not incompatible" (as opposed to 'incompatible') is that it's a knife with a non-serrated blade, like millions of other knives. One of the experts said that many other knives are "more compatible" than this one.

So to say (for example) that one wound was so compatible with the kitchen knife as to "[match] the exact blade characteristics, as outlined in the autopsy report" is plain false. "Not incompatible" is as good as it gets: not exactly a ringing endorsement of the prosecution's theory. It'll be interesting to see if the Court decides to appoint more independent experts to evaluate the forensic evidence.
 
Last edited:
Hi all,
I just had to share a good laugh,
for I went to read up on my favorite guilter website, PMF,
and since I'm on a different computer,
just typed in:
http://perugiamurderfile.com/

Huh?!?
I thought, then smiled!

Have a great rest of your day,
RWVBWL


Too bad not 1 police officer or investigator recorded the interrogation of either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito on the night of Nov. 5+6, 2007...

Clever... haha
 
Hi all,
I just had to share a good laugh,
for I went to read up on my favorite guilter website, PMF,
and since I'm on a different computer,
just typed in:
http://perugiamurderfile.com/

Huh?!?
I thought, then smiled!

Have a great rest of your day,
RWVBWL


Too bad not 1 police officer or investigator recorded the interrogation of either Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito on the night of Nov. 5+6, 2007...


Excellent! Somebody out there has been using the old noggin.

Glad to see you again, RWVBWL. Thanks for the reminder photo about the itty bitty little tiny tape recorder.
 
Apologies if this appears as something of a hit and run (again) - I still don't have enough time onlineto take part in the discussion.

Arturo de Felici, Chief of Police in Perugia;

Really - how much clearer could he have made it?

Since this statement was made immediately after the wrongful arrest of Patrik Lumumba on Nov. 6 2007 and well before Rudy Guede was placed at the murder scene by forensics, which "facts" OTHER than the involvement of PL could de Felici possibly be referring to?

In other words, how much more obvious could it be that the police had already made PL a suspect before forcing AK to name him?

Something like this, perhaps?;

Cop - "WHO was this text message sent to? WHO!!??"

AK - (squints at the tiny screen being brandished in her face and desperately trys to scan the text) "just let me read it ....."

Cop - *whack* - "WHO!!??"


And it's worth considering this, once again, from the inimitable Edgardo Giobbi;

Giobbi was basically admitting that they had NO EVIDENCE against Amanda or Raffael (or Patrik) when they arrested them, and coming up with b*llsh*t to obfuscate the fact. "We didn't need to rely on other kinds of investigation " indeed - what an utter buffoon.


It is true they had no evidence whatsoever against Amanda and Raffaele when they took them in for the interrogations. The evidence in your post confirms their purpose was to use Amanda to bolster their claim against Patrick.
 
Hi Fuji, you happened to wrote elsewhere
I notice also that, sometime last month, the trainwreck thread at JREF has been taken off moderated status. I am debating whether to wade back into that sea of imbeciles, but am holding off for now. I see that Dan O. and Kestrel are continuing to spout the stupidity of the "no evidence of a clean-up" line.

Could you provide some info about that evidence of a clean-up?
It is quite interesting.

Thanks in advance :)
 
I made no claims myself as to the validity of this method of analysis in general, and this example in particular. I agree with you that the study quoted was hardly a scientific one.

However, the FBI does evdiently use Statement Analysis as one of their investigative methods. I have not seen any peer-reviewed literature establishing or discrediting SA's validity. In the absence of this, I am going to partially defer to the experience of the FBI in criminal investigations and allow that it may have validity, but that has not been established.

However, if you (or anyone else) seriously feels that Statement Analysis is pseudo-science with absolutely no investigative validity, then I really think it is incumbent on you to inform the FBI and/or your political represntatives (US citizens only) of your viewpoint.

I think the main problem with giving credibility to this particular analysis is the fact that it does not come from a Statement Analysis "expert". This guy read a book and took an 8 hour on-line class.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ZJEWZLP14MHR
 
I think the main problem with giving credibility to this particular analysis is the fact that it does not come from a Statement Analysis "expert". This guy read a book and took an 8 hour on-line class.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ZJEWZLP14MHR

I am reminded of someone who used to be a regular guest on Coast to Coast with Art Bell, many years ago... I wonder what this guy could learn by playing Amanda's testimony backwards:

http://www.reversespeech.com/home.htm
 
I made no claims myself as to the validity of this method of analysis in general, and this example in particular. I agree with you that the study quoted was hardly a scientific one.

However, the FBI does evdiently use Statement Analysis as one of their investigative methods. I have not seen any peer-reviewed literature establishing or discrediting SA's validity. In the absence of this, I am going to partially defer to the experience of the FBI in criminal investigations and allow that it may have validity, but that has not been established.

However, if you (or anyone else) seriously feels that Statement Analysis is pseudo-science with absolutely no investigative validity, then I really think it is incumbent on you to inform the FBI and/or your political represntatives (US citizens only) of your viewpoint.


Of course the FBI uses statement analysis, and speech analysts use speech analysis. There's a lot of validity to psycholinguistics, rhetoric, etc. But the guy on the site is not doing any of those things.

First and foremost, he's not even analyzing statements in the way they are described in the FBI article. He's just analyzing anything anybody said or wrote, regardless of the circumstances.

Second, he approaches every analysis completely prejudiced by what he already knows about the person he is "analyzing."

Third, he is using symbolism, which is not part of the FBI's approach to statement analysis at all. So far, he has failed to offer support for his arguments or admit his biases. The site is nothing more than yet another outlet for guilters to trash other people.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom