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Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

@A Lurker: I'm very curious exactly what situation you have in mind, where it's somehow her fault if he ends up "needing" to get aggressive and shout more. I'm guessing you've spoted some scenario on that site where a 300 pound body builder woman corners the stereotypical pencil-thin chess-club nerd in a dark alley, or something. Can you provide a link please? Because it would be just freaking sad if someone actually thought it acceptable to get aggressive and shout more (or indeed at all) at a stranger, when they're the ones cornering the stranger.
 
This is what I ask in the thread title. Maybe not bad but is it really being critical?
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Sorry, you'll have to be more specific than that. What is "being critical," and how is the author not doing that?

There's nothing in this article that indicates to me that the author is misinterpreting evidence or using faulty logic. Nobody here denies that women do get raped. The question is one of risk management for women (and of male appreciation of this concern, but we'll get to that in a moment).

Risk management is about assessing not just the likelihood of the potential danger, but the costs and benefits (in terms of reduced risk) of taking preventative action.

What exactly is it that this author does that you object to? You keep throwing around vague phrases like she "treats all men as potential rapists" without explaining what that means. Is she hurting men's feelings by having these "negative" thoughts?

The only actions I can discern that she takes based on her concerns are (1) she's careful about going out at night; (2) she leaves information behind when she goes out on a date; and (3) (this one is implied) she isn't receptive to guys who approach her in a way that shows lack of respect for her privacy and security.

You or I might make different choices, even if we were women. Perhaps I really like the experience of a midnight stroll and am willing to run greater risks than this author. I don't have a problem with someone criticizing someone else's choices as excessively risk-averse. But this is a matter of opinion, not one of fact or critical thinking.

For the author of the article it doesn't matter. Even when she admits the probality of being raped is much lower (being in church and knowing the guy's mother) she operates as if it hasn't changed. Is it unwise? Maybe not, but again; is it really thinking critically? Is it fair?

Not true. Here's what she says about that: "On the other hand, if you are both at church accompanied by your mothers, who are lifelong best friends, the woman is as close as it comes to safe. That is to say, still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good."

What exactly is your beef with that statement? That it's "still not 100% safe"? Do you dispute that?

She's aware that the situation affects the risk; indeed, much of her advice to men is "Pay attention to the environment" and recognize when a woman is likely feeling less secure.

Should women acknowledge that men are concerned with being wrongfully accused of rape, and thus be careful of how they approach men?

Women should acknowledge that many men fear false rape accusations. I'm not sure how it should affect their approach to men, because I'm not sure how a woman could reassure a man on that point -- it's more an after-the-fact thing. The only thing I can think of is that a woman should be aware that if she's constantly talking about what jerks her ex-boyfriends were, how they all emotionally abused her and pressured her into things she didn't want to do, etc., that's going to send up red flags for a man, not just for false rape accusations but for a general predilection for drama. And really, that's sound advice for both genders -- people who complain about their exes or start pulling that "all men/women in this town are jerks" routine are not appealing.

Should I treat every woman I meet as a potential threat? After all, she could ruin my life.

Sure, go ahead and "treat" every woman that way. It's your right to manage your risk level. What that means in terms of behavior is up to you. That might mean not having sex with a woman who is drunk or arguably drunk, or getting to know her better and reassessing her personality before you take any such risks, etc.

Not every woman has an STD, but it's sensible to take precautions.

Claiming that women have to 'worry about these' things is a trumped up charge.

Statements like that make it really hard not to question your attitudes towards rape. In what way is it a "trumped up charge"? Women do get raped. It is a very traumatic experience, not to mention physically dangerous. Why wouldn't they worry about it?

Yes, in some situations women need to be cautious, but she seems to be advocating a heightened level of caution as a norm and then letting it down when the conditions are especially safe.

Adjusting your precautions to the riskiness of the situation seems rather sensible to me.

But you don't always assume that everyone else on the road is drunk until they've demonstrated that they're not.

I assume every other driver is potentially a dangerous idiot -- drunk, distracted by cell phones, or just plain incompetent.

She establishes in the first paragraph that she assumes her male audience is respectable and well-mannered, then proceeds to give advice on how they should be more respectable and well-mannered because there are guys out there who are depraved megalomaniac perverts. So, essentially, "I know you're nice and all, but I'm still thinking of you as a sexual predator." It strikes me as a horrible way to approach interacting with the opposite sex.

Well, first of all, that intro is a little bit of buttering up the reader and attempting to soothe the indignant "but I'm not a rapist! I'm a nice guy!" reaction. I doubt she really assumes that everyone reading it is in fact a nice guy. The whole point of the article is that, while there are clues (guys with rape jokes on their T-shirts), a woman can't tell with certainty who is a rapist and who isn't, so (1) women have to take that into account; and (2) men -- even nice guys who would never rape -- ought to consider this perspective and think of how they come across.

Because this is an issue that is so one sided, (ie. Rapists are always wrong, no matter what the situation.) I think criticisms of women speaking on the issue are often very timid. When it comes down to it, the author is promoting discrimination against 99% of men for the actions of the other 1%. If you inserted another demographic in to the argument, it would instantly be recognized as fallacious and unacceptable.

'Discrimination" isn't a magic word that wins you the argument. I'll ask it again:

WHAT, EXACTLY, IS THIS WOMAN DOING THAT IS HARMFUL TO ANYONE?

Is it that she isn't interested in dating strange men who totally miss or ignore her "leave me alone, please" cues? Is that the grave harm to society that we're talking about here?

Of course, the author is entitled to think and live however she likes, but her justification should be open to criticism no matter what the issue. In this case it's severely lacking.
I'm not saying women shouldn't take precautions to protect themselves. I think there's a better way to do it then to encourage women to stereotype all men as potential rapists.

Who said it's not "open to criticism"? Knock yourself out. But your criticism is open to criticism, too. And when your criticism appears to treat rape as "well, sure, it's a problem, but c'mon," while treating "stereotyping men as potential rapists" as some terrible harm even though you've never articulated the negative consequences of it, you're going to receive some criticism.

TBH, I really don't get exactly what rubs people the wrong way about the article. She never said she'll actually accuse you of being a rapist until you actually try, did she? She never said she'll mace you on sight, did she?

Yeah, I've been trying to find this out, too, but nobody seems to have an answer. Apparently just the possibility that she's having negative thoughts about you is a bad thing, but ironically, she's the one being accused of lacking critical thinking.

But, really, risk management doesn't mean someone is personally accusing you of anything. It just means being aware what _could_ go wrong, and mitigating for it. It's preparing for the worst case scenario.

E.g., when I'm validating inputs on a web page, it doesn't mean I'm accusing _you_ personally of being an evil hacker. But I am nevertheless making my code able to withstand the case if you were. It's just basic precaution, not something personal. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst, and all that.

Ditto for the cases here. Being wary of being approached by a stranger in a dark alley doesn't mean you're actually accusing him of being an actual rapist or mugger or whatever. But you'd be wise to consider the possibility anyway, and try to minimize the risk.

Really, nobody is accusing you of being an actual rapist. Relax already.

Exactly.
 
I am just wondering how this would come off if it targeted say the fear of being mugged and assaulted by African Americans. With all the same behaviors.

I see your point, but that is a bad analogy. One is overt racism, the other is just mitigating an actual _potential_ danger. Woman-on-woman rape is practically non-existent (outside Japanese cartoons, that is;)), so being more worried about men isn't sexism, it's just realism.

IOW, if you lived in a city where 99.9% muggings have been committed by African Americans and caucasian-on-caucasian muggings were virtually non-existent, then you'd have an actual analogy. And in that case you'd also have a reasonable excuse, or I dare even say reason, to be more circumspect around African Americans.
 
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I am just wondering how this would come off if it targeted say the fear of being mugged and assaulted by African Americans. With all the same behaviors.

If 15-25% of citizens were victims of muggings and assault, and 99% of those offenses were committed by African Americans, then I would be fine with the same advice. Which, I'll say again, is not "let's take away men's civil liberties, let's spray them with mace, you're all rapists," but "yeah, I'm a little more concerned about a man approaching me than a woman, and it would be nice if you took that into account."
 
The 1 in 6 women being sexually assaulted is very suspect.
Paranoia.
I wonder how she copes with motor transport and ham sandwiches.

I think arguments from incredulity are suspect, the statitics is 1/3, and most sexual assault occur at home, with family and friends of family.
 
But you don't always assume that everyone else on the road is drunk until they've demonstrated that they're not.

Actually, you'd be well advised to drive as if expecting at least one driver around you to be drunk, distracted, an idiot, or a combination thereof.

It even has a name. That's what "defensive driving" is about. That's why you have the two second rule for example. You're giving yourself enough time to react, in case the guy in front of you slams the brakes for whatever reason. Including the case he's tripping balls and thought he's about to crash into a 10 ft purple Angelina Jolie, or an idiot who's making a point to brake for rabbits, or someone who was having breakfast and a teleconference in his car on the highway and just spilled his McD coffee on his balls.

And, generally, you'd be well advised to expect crap to happen. That way you won't be particularly surprised or short of time to react when the guy in the other lane is turning it into a race instead of letting you pass, or when the truck in the other lane suddenly starts switching lanes even if it involves shoving you off the road, or when the car in front of you suddenly starts swerving left and right, or whatever.

It doesn't mean actually accusing anyone of being drunk. (Which would be wrong.) It just means preparing for the worst. You should give yourself enough time to react in the case they were. Which isn't even remotely similar to actually accusing them of being.
 
Weighing in to this a little late. I read the article last night and agreed with what the author was saying. Most men don't seem to recognize that women do live with a fear of being sexually assaulted. It's not constant paranoia to be vigilant about our own safety.
No, but you can take it too far. Mind you, my problem with the article is not that she's being unfair to men in general. My problem is that she seems to be propagating a mindset where women go around constantly being afraid for no good reason. It seems entirely plausible to me that the suffering caused by women needlessly worrying about getting raped surpasses the suffering by women who are actually raped.

Trains, elevators, and dark alleys are not nightclubs, and the women there aren't looking to meet men.
Again I think you're taking it a bit too far. I don't think I've ever tried to strike up a conversation with a woman in a dark alley, and I don't generally socialize in elevators unless solicited. But trains? Come on. Riding on a train alone can be quite boring.

If you're a man walking down the street alone, and you hear footsteps behind you, do you even consider that the man following may rob you or bash your head in with a bottle?
Of course, but not until I actually notice that person. I don't go around constantly worrying about that possibility.

Remember too that for women, it's not just the fear of a sexual assault, but also common assault and robbery.
Certainly, but unless I have my statistics mixed up, the risk of a woman getting raped or injured is much lower than that of a man. And I believe that is the case even discounting men who do something themselves to pick a fight.
 
A female friend sent me this and I'm a little unsure of how I feel about it.

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/g...pproaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

I think this is bigotry, prejudicial and uncritical, but I'm not sure I have a problem with it...

Is this a good example of weighing social incentives? If a guy is so socially awkward/unaware is it acceptable to treat him as a potential rapist?

Or is this borderline CTer delusion and dishonest use of a statistic? Populating the world with shadow agent boogeyman where every man is a possible rapist, every Arab is a terrorist and every homosexual is a disease vector?


With respect to the bolded part…remember the guy (Hasan) who shot up the Fort Hood in Texas?
I remember hearing people say, “Well, wasn’t he showing signs? Why didn’t we do anything?”

I always asked, “What were we supposed to do? Let us assume that there were signs. That someone could’ve connected the dots before hand…what were we to do? Arrest him? Arrest him because we think he might do something? Offer counseling? Counseling because someone else connected the dots and they think he might do something bad? How could we intervene, either legally or morally, because of intuition?”

I tend not to get an answer at that point.

So…back to raping the cat. Wait…Uh…I can see where’s she’s coming from, and to be honest, I think it’s quite a good metaphor.

Is prejudice a concern here? Back to the classical definition of prejudice: Pre-judging. Is she pre-judging?

Its time for the slippery slope…back to the Hasan, do we approach every person who might fit his profile* as a possible “bad guy”? Do we intervene because of intuition?

If a tree falls in the forest, with nobody but her around, and the tree rapes her, do her cries make a sound?


* But! Be sure not to use race in the profile. That hurts some people’s feelings.
I'm not seeing the "bigotry" or uncritical thinking you allude to in your OP. (I'm not sure about that "1 in 6" statistic, though.)

I suspect the author is a little more (for lack of a better term) cautious than the average woman, but not off the deep end or anything.

I'm a guy, but I have a similar though process when I'm approached by a stranger. Fortunately I don't really have to worry about sexual assault, but I do ask myself whether this person is going to be something less serious like an annoying sales person, an aggressive beggar, a bully spoiling for a fight, or something innocuous like a tourist asking for directions or someone I've met and forgotten.

Dunstan...what about getting approached by Jim Lahey late at night. We all know how Lahey feels about Julian...Would you be worried about sexual assault then?
 
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Originally Posted by Merko
Second, no there's actually no 'male privilige' involved here. Yes, men don't get raped so often. They just get their head bashed in with a bottle, or a knife in the back, or someone stomping on their face. The likelihood of a man getting seriously injured by an unknown man is far greater than that of a woman getting raped by an unknown man. Yet, we do not consider it reasonable for men to constantly worry about this risk.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for men to be aware of situations in which anger is escalating and to try and prevent violence. Responsible men who I know do this already, just because you just aren't one doesn't mean they don't exist. So for instance, you're in a bar. You accidentally spill a drink on another man, a large, beligerent and drunk guy, who instantly becomes irrationally enraged at you spilling your drink on him. I think a responsible man recognizes the fact that this situation can escalate, and will try and diffuse the situation, rather than escalate it and becoming angry and aggressive back to the man they have unintentionally antagonized. Sometimes this doesn't work, and you get beat up, or even killed anyways. The same way a woman who takes precautions can still be raped. But I think it is nothing BUT reasonable for you to think, "Wow, this guy is angry, much larger than me, and could really hurt me. I should do what is in my ability to prevent that from happening, rather than insulting his mother and spitting in his face."
 
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Maybe that includes statutory rape.

Or it could just be a matter of how women define sexual assault in the survey, which is my guess.

For instance, I knew a girl in college who once had her breast grabbed briefly, over the shirt, by a stranger. She was so upset at this that she actually dropped out of college for the summer semester, and truly acted as if she was traumatized by the experience. I'm sure she personally would consider that one second boob grab "a sexual assault," even though most other women I know personally, myself included, would not. When I've had men grope me uninvited, it certainly annoyed me, but I wouldn't personally define it as an assault and I didn't experience any kind of emotional distress as a result.

I find the one in six figure possible, but I'm skeptical of it.
 
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ONe study I read a number of years ago (I'll see if I can find it again) surveyed college women, asking is they had been raped. If they were under the influence of alcohol and had consensual sex, the survey called it rape. If they were both drinking, it was considered rape againt her but not against him no matter who was providing the alcohol.

If they had sex when they weren't really in the mood, but did it to please their boyfriend, it was called rape.

If the women surveyed said it wasn't rape in those circumstances, the surveyors still called it rape.

That's why I'm suspicious of stats I see.
 
How ironic. This is actually a thread about a woman telling men how to act.

... if they want to chat up a woman. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that. She's not telling you how to live your life or anything. She's telling you how you can increase your chances of getting what you want. Of course, you're free to do something else, but then don't be surprised if you get a different result.

It's the same as telling someone, say, "if you want gas, take the second left and pull into the gas station there." You're not telling them what to do. You're telling them how to get a result they want. They're free to take the third right or pull into a drive-in movie theatre instead, if they don't want your advice, but then they shouldn't be particularly surprised if they don't get any gas there.

Same here. If you want something from someone -- be it sex or just some idle conversation in the train or a cup of flour because you feel like baking a cake on a Sunday -- essentially it helps to remember that nobody owes you anything at all. Not even the time of day. If you can convince them to, more power to you, but if you come across as not the kind of person they want to have anything to do with, congrats, you failed fair and square. She's just telling you how to increase your chances, but you can equally decide to come across as an unhinged a-hole and then whine about how unfair it is that those evil women won't even give you the time of day.

And, again, I don't even see anything really woman-specific there. If I wanted something from a Jewish male neighbour, I'd be well advised to not show up wearing an SS insignia and carrying a copy of Mein Kampf (the equivalent of showing up with a rape joke t-shirt at a date in her example), or he may decide to not even talk to me. If I want to be friendly with a neighbour who's an old ex GULAG victim from the USSR, I don't play the USSR anthem at volume 11. If I want something from a fundie neighbour, I don't show up in a t-shirt with the Slayer pentagram and ANTICHRIST written on it. If I want something from a Chinese co-worker I don't show up with the t-shirt from T-Shirt Hell that says "if Asians are so smart, why do they have small dicks?" nor use my superior size to make him feel threatened. Etc.

Of course, I could also rail against someone telling me to not do those things, and tell them to stop telling me what to do. But then I also shouldn't wonder if those people don't want to talk to me.
 
ONe study I read a number of years ago (I'll see if I can find it again) surveyed college women, asking is they had been raped. If they were under the influence of alcohol and had consensual sex, the survey called it rape. If they were both drinking, it was considered rape againt her but not against him no matter who was providing the alcohol.

If they had sex when they weren't really in the mood, but did it to please their boyfriend, it was called rape.

If the women surveyed said it wasn't rape in those circumstances, the surveyors still called it rape.

That's why I'm suspicious of stats I see.

Damn, I got raped by my ex GF :p

More seriously, though, I think it actually doesn't matter much. Her case doesn't as much hinge on a particular number being raped or in what definition, but on the fact that women fear it. Basically even if that number was wrong, what matters is that she believes it.

And she's saying basically how to chat her up without basically tripping that potential danger signal.
 
... if they want to chat up a woman. I'm sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
I don't see anything wrong with it either, I was just commenting on Ysidro's 'men should not try to advise women' comment.
 
Wow. Thanks for quote mining and clipping out the part of my post where I said the same thing you did in your reply:

I didn't quote mine, I quoted. I didn't include you saying "they don't deserve it" because it doesn't have any impact on what I was saying. It's one of those "I'm not racist, but…" things - putting a disclaimer on does not mean that I'm not allowed to talk about the implications of what you said around that disclaimer.

So you don't really agree with her posistion. The likelihood of rape doesn't seem to effect her threshold of concearn and she simply views interactions with men as a zero some game where the outcomes are A) violent sexual assault and B) nothing happens.

I'm wondering if we even read the same article.

Click the FAQ on that article, you will see that Kate Harding is the co-author of "Lessons From The Fat-o-Sphere", which wasn't all that relevant at first,

I still don't see how it would be relevant. Kate Harding isn't even who wrote the article in question, nor would we need to worry about whether or not there are pictures of her flipping the camera off in order to talk about the content of this piece.
 
Or it could just be a matter of how women define sexual assault in the survey, which is my guess.

For instance, I knew a girl in college who once had her breast grabbed briefly, over the shirt, by a stranger. She was so upset at this that she actually dropped out of college for the summer semester, and truly acted as if she was traumatized by the experience. I'm sure she personally would consider that one second boob grab "a sexual assault," even though most other women I know personally, myself included, would not. When I've had men grope me uninvited, it certainly annoyed me, but I wouldn't personally define it as an assault and I didn't experience any kind of emotional distress as a result.

I find the one in six figure possible, but I'm skeptical of it.

Once in sixth grade, when I was standing in the doorframe, a girl in class squeezed through and the back of her hand ended up pushing against my groin.

Should I consider myself sexually assaulted?
 

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