Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kevin_Lowe]

This 'coerced-internalized' false confession' thing paints Amanda as a pretty weak reed.

No. Young people, the mentally disabled and so on are more likely to fall victim to an internalised false confession, but it doesn't follow from the fact that a person fell victim to an internalised false confession that they are necessarily dumber or weaker than the average.

If she's that ready to go along to get along then why wouldn't she participate in the murder for the same reason.

Internalised false confessions are documented psychological phenomenon. Spontaneous murder-participation is something you just pulled out of thin air.

In any case, you're still sniping at irrelevancies while ignoring the elephant in the room of the time of death. If she wasn't there when Meredith died she didn't participate, no matter what amateur armchair psychology you make up.

Since they were convicted unanimously then maybe your understanding of the nature and the quality of the evidence is faulty.

This mole is already flat. We are examining the court's conclusion, so appealing to the court's conclusion as evidence for its own truth is circular. Stop popping up well-flattened moles and address the elephant in the room.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Most likely between 9:00 and 9:30

I guess it's a minor improvement over the prosecution theory, because at least it gets the time of death right.

It doesn't explain the claimed positive result for Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp, and it makes little sense because in your version Rudy has no motive at all to murder Meredith, and Amanda and Raffaele have no motive at all to cover up for Rudy. It also contradicts Curatolo's story, and if Curatolo is lying then a police fit-up looks substantially more probable than a motiveless murder and a motiveless cover-up.

In any case, alternative prosecution theories that don't have significant factual support are vacuous. You're playing a game where Amanda and Raffaele have to prove beyond all doubt that they could not conceivably have killed Meredith. That's the opposite of how a proper investigation goes, where the prosecution's job is to prove that they could not conceivably be innocent.

If not being able to prove beyond all doubt you are innocent is enough to find you guilty, half of Perugia belongs behind bars. After all, can they prove that they couldn't have done it?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I guess it's a minor improvement over the prosecution theory, because at least it gets the time of death right.

It doesn't explain the claimed positive result for Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp, and it makes little sense because in your version Rudy has no motive at all to murder Meredith, and Amanda and Raffaele have no motive at all to cover up for Rudy. It also contradicts Curatolo's story, and if Curatolo is lying then a police fit-up looks substantially more probable than a motiveless murder and a motiveless cover-up.

In any case, alternative prosecution theories that don't have significant factual support are vacuous. You're playing a game where Amanda and Raffaele have to prove beyond all doubt that they could not conceivably have killed Meredith. That's the opposite of how a proper investigation goes, where the prosecution's job is to prove that they could not conceivably be innocent.

If not being able to prove beyond all doubt you are innocent is enough to find you guilty, half of Perugia belongs behind bars. After all, can they prove that they couldn't have done it?

I have no idea what you are talking about because you have everything you stated above wrong. Perhaps your responding to someone else and quoted the wrong section.

 

[tsig]

No. Young people, the mentally disabled and so on are more likely to fall victim to an internalised false confession, but it doesn't follow from the fact that a person fell victim to an internalised false confession that they are necessarily dumber or weaker than the average.



Internalised false confessions are documented psychological phenomenon. Spontaneous murder-participation is something you just pulled out of thin air.

In any case, you're still sniping at irrelevancies while ignoring the elephant in the room of the time of death. If she wasn't there when Meredith died she didn't participate, no matter what amateur armchair psychology you make up.



This mole is already flat. We are examining the court's conclusion, so appealing to the court's conclusion as evidence for its own truth is circular. Stop popping up well-flattened moles and address the elephant in the room.

Equating Amanda with the mentally disabled?

"Spontaneous murder-participation " Where did you get this one from?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I have no idea what you are talking about because you have everything you stated above wrong. Perhaps your responding to someone else and quoted the wrong section.

No. I'll let your words stand for themselves, and anyone interested can judge whether or not my reading of them was fair.

Equating Amanda with the mentally disabled?

No.

"Spontaneous murder-participation " Where did you get this one from?

I'll let your words stand for themselves, and anyone interested can judge whether or not my reading of them was fair.

You are still ignoring the elephant in the room, tsig. If Meredith died at 22:00 or earlier the Massei report is a load of old pants. If Amanda and Raffaele weren't there when Meredith died, you can make up whatever stories you like but they still cannot possibly have done it.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

No. I'll let your words stand for themselves, and anyone interested can judge whether or not my reading of them was fair.

Again, your reply makes no sense to me but I will try and humour you. First off, I’ve never mentioned how RS’s DNA got on the bra but I will now, he used a large kitchen knife he brought with him to cut Meredith’s bra off. Rudy motive which I’ve also never mentioned is protecting Amanda after she got into an argument or fight with Meredith, I’m thinking when Rudy stepped in, Meredith’s strength surprised him and he was forced to use his knife while Amanda sat in the kitchen with her hands over her ears, sound familiar. Curatolo story is true, after Amanda ran back to Raff’s to tell him what was happening with Rudy and Meredith, Raff grabbed the large kitchen knife and went with Amanda back to her place where he met Rudy while Amanda stayed outside, sound failure again, Raff is no hero, he ran with Amanda to the court across the street to decide what to do next, Curatolo see them there. Your next paragraph needs no reply by me.

 

[Chris C]

Every time I've been stopped for speeding the cop was happy to show me the readout.

If it comes to a trial the cop has to show the evidence.

Now you understand my point. The cop may or may not show you. Yes he is suppose to. In the case against Knox/Sollecito. The prosecution has refused to show proof. They wave a piece of paper in the air and say look a partial dna profile of sollecito. The defense says prove it. The prosecution says we dont have to prove it we got this piece of paper. Yet whenever pressed to prove the results of their tests, either by independent review or the data tapes, there has been a refusal by the court or the prosecution. The defense was unable to even get them to test evidence they thought might be crucial to their defense.(semen stain) The prosecutions whole case is based on cherry picked evidence and if it didn't fit with guilty it was either thrown away or not turned over.

 

[Chris C]

I am surprised Massei didn't use this reasoning in the Motivation report. Perhaps it is not perfect after all.

Because the supreme court forbid the use of the statement by Knox in the Murder trial. The prosecution slipped it in the backdoor on the slander charge. If they tried to use it as evidence in the Murder trial, it would have been in violation of the supreme courts order. We will see how the conviction stands if it ever goes to the supreme court. Considering the use of the statement was used indirectly in the murder trial.

 

[tsig]

No. I'll let your words stand for themselves, and anyone interested can judge whether or not my reading of them was fair.



No.



I'll let your words stand for themselves, and anyone interested can judge whether or not my reading of them was fair.

You are still ignoring the elephant in the room, tsig. If Meredith died at 22:00 or earlier the Massei report is a load of old pants. If Amanda and Raffaele weren't there when Meredith died, you can make up whatever stories you like but they still cannot possibly have done it.

Shame all the defense attorneys didn't notice this.

 

[tsig]

Again, your reply makes no sense to me but I will try and humour you. First off, I’ve never mentioned how RS’s DNA got on the bra but I will now, he used a large kitchen knife he brought with him to cut Meredith’s bra off. Rudy motive which I’ve also never mentioned is protecting Amanda after she got into an argument or fight with Meredith, I’m thinking when Rudy stepped in, Meredith’s strength surprised him and he was forced to use his knife while Amanda sat in the kitchen with her hands over her ears, sound familiar. Curatolo story is true, after Amanda ran back to Raff’s to tell him what was happening with Rudy and Meredith, Raff grabbed the large kitchen knife and went with Amanda back to her place where he met Rudy while Amanda stayed outside, sound failure again, Raff is no hero, he ran with Amanda to the court across the street to decide what to do next, Curatolo see them there. Your next paragraph needs no reply by me.

I think we're heading to the same scenario.

Amanda was mad about being fired and got into a fight with Meridith about it.
The two guys sided with Amanda and death resulted.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I think we're heading to the same scenario.

Amanda was mad about being fired and got into a fight with Meridith about it.
The two guys sided with Amanda and death resulted.

Works for me, I'm leaning towards just one guy at first, Rudy but I don't rule out anything, except 100% innocents, they are all involved to some degree.

 

[Chris C]

Who are Rudy's friends? I hear about the skype conversation. Who was that converstion with and where did they live. What was their relationship with Rudy.

We hear alot about Meredith's friends. We have heard how all 4 roommates had boyfriends. We have had heard that Sollecito had friends and was dating Amanda. We know Sollecito and Rudy where not friends. Amanda claims to only recall meeting him maybe twice. We keep hearing how Rudy met up with Knox/Sollecito and together killed Meredith.

Except who would Rudy normally hang out with?

Sollecito had never met the guy so obviously he would not be the person he normally hangs out with. Rudy was clearly infatuated with Knox, but even he admits there was no relationship between them. Heck according to Knox, she had a 1 night stand with a friend of Meredith's boyfriend. For someone that helped a guy commit rape and murder, it seems odd that they aren't even friends or have even had sex.

 

[Kestrel]

Shame all the defense attorneys didn't notice this.

If you read the "Time of Death" section of Raffaele's appeal, it's apparent that they did notice this.

 

[Kestrel]

I think we're heading to the same scenario.

Amanda was mad about being fired and got into a fight with Meridith about it.
The two guys sided with Amanda and death resulted.

A few days after the murder, Amanda told Patrick that she needed to quit her job because she was afraid to be on the streets at night.

She wouldn't need to do that if she had already been fired.

 

[Chris C]

If you read the "Time of Death" section of Raffaele's appeal, it's apparent that they did notice this.

Not only did they notice it, but apparently Mignini noticed it also. Someone recently mentioned on Injustice blog that Mignini fired Dr. Lalli after his testimony on the witness stand. Apparently Mignini fired him 2 days later because its his right to do so. Im sorry but if the prosecutor is going to fire someone because they dont go along with his theory, then nothing that is presented into evidence by Mignini can be believed.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Shame all the defense attorneys didn't notice this.

That mole is flat, tsig. Didn't you read the very post you are responding to? Nobody here who questions the verdict thinks the defence team handled the case perfectly any more than they think that the court is infallible.

In addition, you're also just plain flat out wrong about the facts. The defence did have their expert argue that the time of death based on Meredith's real weight and the stomach contents was 21:30. Massei ignored them, citing as his excuse for ignoring the evidence the demonstrably bogus hypothesis from Professor Ronchi that Dr. Lalli manually moved everything in Meredith's duodenum down to the very end of her bowel accidentally and without noticing. Since we know Lalli tied off the bowel as per standard procedure, Massei's sole excuse for ignoring that evidence has fallen.

So that's a double helping of fail. Your argument is irrelevant and wrong.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Again, your reply makes no sense to me but I will try and humour you. First off, I’ve never mentioned how RS’s DNA got on the bra but I will now, he used a large kitchen knife he brought with him to cut Meredith’s bra off. Rudy motive which I’ve also never mentioned is protecting Amanda after she got into an argument or fight with Meredith, I’m thinking when Rudy stepped in, Meredith’s strength surprised him and he was forced to use his knife while Amanda sat in the kitchen with her hands over her ears, sound familiar. Curatolo story is true, after Amanda ran back to Raff’s to tell him what was happening with Rudy and Meredith, Raff grabbed the large kitchen knife and went with Amanda back to her place where he met Rudy while Amanda stayed outside, sound failure again, Raff is no hero, he ran with Amanda to the court across the street to decide what to do next, Curatolo see them there. Your next paragraph needs no reply by me.

It seems to me there's no rhyme or reason to any of this, and you're just playing Mad Libs with the available evidence.

You can do that all you like, but as I said, it's vacuous.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It seems to me there's no rhyme or reason to any of this, and you're just playing Mad Libs with the available evidence.

You can do that all you like, but as I said, it's vacuous.

There is no sense in debating this with you any further I see, you will only see whatever you wish. Good day then.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Again, your reply makes no sense to me but I will try and humour you. First off, I’ve never mentioned how RS’s DNA got on the bra but I will now, he used a large kitchen knife he brought with him to cut Meredith’s bra off. Rudy motive which I’ve also never mentioned is protecting Amanda after she got into an argument or fight with Meredith, I’m thinking when Rudy stepped in, Meredith’s strength surprised him and he was forced to use his knife while Amanda sat in the kitchen with her hands over her ears, sound familiar. Curatolo story is true, after Amanda ran back to Raff’s to tell him what was happening with Rudy and Meredith, Raff grabbed the large kitchen knife and went with Amanda back to her place where he met Rudy while Amanda stayed outside, sound failure again, Raff is no hero, he ran with Amanda to the court across the street to decide what to do next, Curatolo see them there. Your next paragraph needs no reply by me.

And I would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for you kids!

 

[Mary_H]

Again, your reply makes no sense to me but I will try and humour you. First off, I’ve never mentioned how RS’s DNA got on the bra but I will now, he used a large kitchen knife he brought with him to cut Meredith’s bra off. Rudy motive which I’ve also never mentioned is protecting Amanda after she got into an argument or fight with Meredith, I’m thinking when Rudy stepped in, Meredith’s strength surprised him and he was forced to use his knife while Amanda sat in the kitchen with her hands over her ears, sound familiar. Curatolo story is true, after Amanda ran back to Raff’s to tell him what was happening with Rudy and Meredith, Raff grabbed the large kitchen knife and went with Amanda back to her place where he met Rudy while Amanda stayed outside, sound failure again, Raff is no hero, he ran with Amanda to the court across the street to decide what to do next, Curatolo see them there. Your next paragraph needs no reply by me.

How does Raffaele cutting off Meredith's bra fit into the picture?