Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[JREF2010]

I was going to make pretty much the same point here. The bath mat partial print was made in a wet mixture of blood and water, on a highly absorbent surface with large ridges and heavily tufted fabric pile. In these circumstances, it's patently ridiculous to pretend that the footprint can be measured to the millimetre, then compared with static ink-on-paper prints of Sollecito and Guede. After all, even Rinaldi must know that absorbent towelling cloth tends to spread moisture in a "blotting"-style action, and that the very action of depressing the mat with the foot would have distorted the thick pile of the mat.

I probably wouldn't go so far as to exclude Sollecito as a possible source of the print, but I'd definitely go so far as to include Guede as a highly possible source.

It seems it should at least be considered that Rudy left the footprint on the bathmat as Rudy admitted going into the bathroom and had been in the blood with Meredith. Rudy admits being in a bloody situation and then going to the bathroom, its a partial truth most likely. He was in the bathroom but it wasn't to save Meredith it was to wash up.

Not sure about Italian laws and if the Judge Massei could include other testimonies from Rudys trial documents and Micheli's report which he surely has read.

Its like guessing an ink blot, but the bathmat print seems to match Rudys not Raffaeles. There's that small pattern beside the large toe print, which looks like a second toe print, imo, and this aligns to Rudy.

 

[Mary_H]

loverofzion

"loverofzion" is asking other people to quote their sources? How about quoting a few yourself, l-o-z? So far, you have made the following claims, all of which are disputed or disproven, and none of which you have backed up:

Amanda knew there would be no answer when she called Meredith.
Raffaele was held because his alibi did not hold up.
Raffaele offered three different alibis.
Raffaele threw Amanda under the bus.
Raffaele and Amanda bought one pair of lingerie while laughing about having hot sex
Amanda and Raffaele had six alibis.
Amanda never retracted her accusation of Patrick.
Amanda irrevocably ruined Patrick's business.
Amanda's mother knew that Patrick was innocent
Amanda told her mother that Patrick was innocent.
Amanda is a liar and a cold and calculated criminal.
All labs involved used scrupulous, standardized and tested conditions.
Amanda wanted to mastermind the finding of Meredith's body.
Amanda and Raffaele were surprised by the postal police during the latter stages of their clean up.
Amanda and Raffaele called the police after the postal police arrived.
Neither Amanda nor Raffaele expressed any certainty about their alibis.
Amanda and Raffaele threw Meredith's phones into a ravine
Amanda and Raffaele staged Filomena's room to appear as if a burglar had broken in.
Amanda lied by saying Meredith habitually locked her door.
Raffaele was proven to have been in the murder room by his DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.
Meredith's DNA was on the blade of the murder weapon.

I think we have all cut "loverofzion" more than enough slack. In half a day he posted almost 30 comments, a couple of which were edited for rule violations and a few of which were completely removed, which meant that our comments in response to his were removed, too.

His knowledge of the details of the crime is outdated. His schtick has grown tiresome. He appears to be here only to provoke.

 

[Fine]

loverofzion,

It is a fundamental tenet of DNA forensics, almost axiomatic, that the presence of DNA on an item does not tell us when or how the DNA was deposited. Amanda's DNA on the knife handle is strictly meaningless, because she cooked with it. Likewise, one does not know when Amanda's DNA came to be in the locations where it was found with Meredith's blood.

Amanda met Rudy one time, and she said he MAY have come into the club. You are exaggerating how many times they met.
Please document any claims you make about Amanda or Raffaele's drug use (besides cannabis) on the night of the murder. If you cannot back up your claims with citations, they are baseless rumors. And I know you cannot.

________________________

Amanda did state, in her court testimony, that Rudy had come into the club, La Chic, while she worked:

"GB [Giulia Bongiorno]: Can you tell me if you frequented each other, if you went out together?
Because you said that once you saw him at a party.

AK [Amanda Knox]: Yes, he came into my bar once, for example, but there was always this fact
that I had to work there, he came in, I don't think I even gave him a drink,
because -- I don't remember the situation that well, but I think he came in
and then went out. I don't remember. But really, I didn't know him at all."

///

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't know why you're holding your theory in. If it fits with what we know then I think you should reveal it.

Simple, FOAKer’s all seem to believe in complete innocence, they simply were not there and had nothing to do with it. Guilter’s the complete opposite, have them right there in the room doing whatever. The problem in this murder is that there is far too much that is not known, the Prosecutor is way out to lunch and the Defence are dead wrong too.
I feel the truth lies somewhere in between. All three, Rudy, Amanda and Raff have all told stories where some of the truth is there mixed with some lies.
Amanda’s confession or implication is basically true if you exchange Patrick’s name for Rudy. Rudy’s is somewhat true as well, the part about seeing RS with a knife, Amanda outside, the towels, Meredith’s pants and bra on when he left. Raff’s story about Amanda going out, him staying home, then changes when she comes back and tells him what’s happening at her place, he takes the biggest kitchen knife in his drawl and head over to Amanda’s where he confronts Rudy and runs.
Most of the stuff we hear from the defendants, like
I didn’t kill Meredith
I wasn’t even in the house
I was with Raff
I never even met Rudy, I didn’t know him
Amoung many others, are true, but meant to deceive. Rudy is the sole killer of Meredith, Amanda is the main person responsible for Meredith’s death and Raff is guilty of trying to cover up Amanda’s involvement by deceiving the police investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher.

We'll try this for starters

 

[HumanityBlues]

________________________

Amanda did state, in her court testimony, that Rudy had come into the club, La Chic, while she worked:

"GB [Giulia Bongiorno]: Can you tell me if you frequented each other, if you went out together?
Because you said that once you saw him at a party.

AK [Amanda Knox]: Yes, he came into my bar once, for example, but there was always this fact
that I had to work there, he came in, I don't think I even gave him a drink,
because -- I don't remember the situation that well, but I think he came in
and then went out. I don't remember. But really, I didn't know him at all."

///

So? How does that negate anything he said? Did she talk to him? It doesn't sound like it. I think you highlighted the wrong portion there Fine.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Simple, FOAKer’s all seem to believe in complete innocence, they simply were not there and had nothing to do with it. Guilter’s the complete opposite, have them right there in the room doing whatever. The problem in this murder is that there is far too much that is not known, the Prosecutor is way out to lunch and the Defence are dead wrong too.
I feel the truth lies somewhere in between. All three, Rudy, Amanda and Raff have all told stories where some of the truth is there mixed with some lies.
Amanda’s confession or implication is basically true if you exchange Patrick’s name for Rudy. Rudy’s is somewhat true as well, the part about seeing RS with a knife, Amanda outside, the towels, Meredith’s pants and bra on when he left. Raff’s story about Amanda going out, him staying home, then changes when she comes back and tells him what’s happening at her place, he takes the biggest kitchen knife in his drawl and head over to Amanda’s where he confronts Rudy and runs.
Most of the stuff we hear from the defendants, like
I didn’t kill Meredith
I wasn’t even in the house
I was with Raff
I never even met Rudy, I didn’t know him
Amoung many others, are true, but meant to deceive. Rudy is the sole killer of Meredith, Amanda is the main person responsible for Meredith’s death and Raff is guilty of trying to cover up Amanda’s involvement by deceiving the police investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher.

We'll try this for starters

So you think the prosecution is BSing the court about the murder weapon then?

Edit: I also don't understand how Rudy is the sole killer but Amanda is the main person responsible? You probably realize why that's confusing. I think I know what you're trying to say, but perhaps you would like to clarify.

 

[quadraginta]

I analyzed the images in Rinaldi's presentation with a caliper tool. Sollecito's foot might be longer than his footprint because the reference print doesn't show his second toe (usually the longest) at all.

<snip>

This sounds very professional, and the part I highlighted is tossed off rather casually, as if it is common knowledge. I'm not certain that it is, and wonder what causes you to seem so confident.

"Long toe", known medically as "Morton's toe", historically as "Greek toe", and occasionally as "Celtic toe, is a condition which most of the sources I'm familiar with suggest is shared by about 10% of the population overall (although region variations may be higher.) This doesn't meet the common definition of "usually".

I wonder if you could share your sources on this subject? I ask because I'm one of that 10% (or ... "usually" ) and have had some interest in the subject most of my life. My second toe is nearly 1/2 in. longer than my big toe. My third toe is nearly as long as my big toe.

There are often negative medical repercussions from this condition, occasionally serious and even debilitating ones, which is one reason it has been researched rather diligently by orthopedists for many years. From what I know about the subject your belief about its incidence is rather at odds with theirs. I'm surprised that they haven't noticed.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So you think the prosecution is BSing the court about the murder weapon then?

Edit: I also don't understand how Rudy is the sole killer but Amanda is the main person responsible? You probably realize why that's confusing. I think I know what you're trying to say, but perhaps you would like to clarify.

Yes, the big knife was not used in the murder, Meredith's DNA is on it because Raff brought it to the house and kept it with him throughout the night, and during the set up. Amanda cleaned it, but not very well.

Amanda started the fight/argument with Meredith; Rudy stepped in and finished it while Amanda ran away. Amanda saw enough of Rudy's anger that she feared him immensely.

The mistake made here by Amanda and Raff was not going to the police right away, instead they went to the house, and made one bad decision after another.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Yes, the big knife was not used in the murder, Meredith's DNA is on it because Raff brought it to the house and kept it with him throughout the night, and during the set up. Amanda cleaned it, but not very well.

Amanda started the fight/argument with Meredith; Rudy stepped in and finished it while Amanda ran away. Amanda saw enough of Rudy's anger that she feared him immensely.

The mistake made here by Amanda and Raff was not going to the police right away, instead they went to the house, and made one bad decision after another.

Interesting.

 

[Chris C]

This sounds very professional, and the part I highlighted is tossed off rather casually, as if it is common knowledge. I'm not certain that it is, and wonder what causes you to seem so confident.

"Long toe", known medically as "Morton's toe", historically as "Greek toe", and occasionally as "Celtic toe, is a condition which most of the sources I'm familiar with suggest is shared by about 10% of the population overall (although region variations may be higher.) This doesn't meet the common definition of "usually".

I wonder if you could share your sources on this subject? I ask because I'm one of that 10% (or ... "usually" ) and have had some interest in the subject most of my life. My second toe is nearly 1/2 in. longer than my big toe. My third toe is nearly as long as my big toe.

There are often negative medical repercussions from this condition, occasionally serious and even debilitating ones, which is one reason it has been researched rather diligently by orthopedists for many years. From what I know about the subject your belief about its incidence is rather at odds with theirs. I'm surprised that they haven't noticed.

You know after reading this I just had to look at my toes. My big toe is longest on both feet. Their length is in order, from big toe longest to pinky toe shortest.

 

[quadraginta]

You know after reading this I just had to look at my toes. My big toe is longest on both feet. Their length is in order, from big toe longest to pinky toe shortest.

You would know if you shared this condition. Trust me on this.

The first clue is needing to buy shoes one or two sizes larger than anyone else with otherwise comparably sized feet. This is the easy part. You could also find yourself developing callouses in unusual and occasionally uncomfortable places, like in the hollow on the underside of a toe, where it feels like there is a piece of trash stuck under your foot all the time.

It can screw up your toenails. It can screw up your toes. It can screw up the way you walk and cause knee, hip, back, shoulder, and even neck pain. In more extreme cases surgery is sometimes required.

I know of no one who's made it to adulthood with this syndrome who has failed to notice it.

"Usually".

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Yes, the big knife was not used in the murder, Meredith's DNA is on it because Raff brought it to the house and kept it with him throughout the night, and during the set up. Amanda cleaned it, but not very well.

Amanda started the fight/argument with Meredith; Rudy stepped in and finished it while Amanda ran away. Amanda saw enough of Rudy's anger that she feared him immensely.

The mistake made here by Amanda and Raff was not going to the police right away, instead they went to the house, and made one bad decision after another.

What time do you think this all happened at?

 

[Scorpion NITE]

In response to your points:

1) I didn't intend to imply that was Massei's reasoning (as I would imagine neither did katy_did). I was responding to katy_did's quote and response concerning page 348 and giving additional information from the same page. Perhaps I would have been more clear if I had wrote Massei Motivations rather than Massei? Further reading from page 348 through page 356 will give the opinion of the court with respect to the prints.

2) Yes, and that is what I was referring to in answer to katy_did's post (the part I bolded had to do with the luminol prints). The last paragraph was just added information from page 348 which ties in the bathmat print to the hallway print.

Apologies in advance as I really ought to know the answer but as I don't fancy traipsing through this giant thread (again...lol) or searching elsewhere, please could someone kindly clarify the following for me?

Were bare footprints of Raffaele found in the hallway?

 

[loverofzion]

When you talk on the phone is everything you say precise, exact and absolutely complete?

Imprecision in language is not proof of guilt. It's proof that you are human.

Nice try.
We're not talking "imprecision of language".
Raf said 'NOTHING WAS TAKEN".
No room for wiggle there.

How did Raffaello know this?

 

[Dan O.]

Amanda’s confession or implication is basically true if you exchange Patrick’s name for Rudy.

Sherlock, the police interrogation is fatally flawed and produced zero useable information. Everything Amanda said in that "confession" had been first suggested by the police. Nothing they got that night could be independently verified to sort out fact from fiction. The interrogation was also legally flawed because it violated the rights of suspects under Italian law.

You are doing the same thing that the prosecution did by coming up with a theory and then cherry picking the circumstantial evidence that fits your theory and discarding the rest. There is no validity to your theory.


Theories are fine as a hypothesis but then they need to be validated by testing. Use the theory as a guide for where to look for additional evidence that may support or refute the theory.


eta: As a theoretical example, suppose that the police had a theory that a thief broke in through the window. Consistent with such a theory would be an expectation that there would be evidence such as tracks outside the window. To test the theory, an investigator would be sent outside to document if any such tracks existed. In this case, the prosecution claims that someone did go out to look for tracks but no documentation of the results exists. The investigators were not looking for evidence that refuted their theory but only documenting the evidence that supported it. Of course, Mignini had a different theory that ignored the break-in entirely.

 

[tsig]

Yes, the big knife was not used in the murder, Meredith's DNA is on it because Raff brought it to the house and kept it with him throughout the night, and during the set up. Amanda cleaned it, but not very well.

Amanda started the fight/argument with Meredith; Rudy stepped in and finished it while Amanda ran away. Amanda saw enough of Rudy's anger that she feared him immensely.

The mistake made here by Amanda and Raff was not going to the police right away, instead they went to the house, and made one bad decision after another.

Maybe the fight started over Amanda losing her job while Meridith kept hers. Getting fired could be the motivation to accuse Patrick later.

 

[loverofzion]

This again?

Alright, Meredith's keys, credit cards, cash and phones were stolen from her, the phones presumably so she couldn't call for help, but the cards and cash for what? So it would fit with the staged break-in? Loverofzion, why would they take Meredith's belongings, only to tell the police nothing had been taken? This is another damned-if-they-do/damned-if-they-don't scenario. Had Rafaelle told the police that those things had been taken it would definitively prove he was guilty. But he said the complete opposite and is still faulted by the guilters. You're assumption also ignores that Amanda did a quick run-through of the house and, having noticed no major items missing, told Rafaelle that nothing appeared stolen.

Yes but nothing had been taken from Filomena's room.
Amanda did not do a "run through " of the room; they had staged this burglary so knew NOTHING was removed.
Two different scenarios; the keys, phones and cash were taken from Meredith at the murder scene; the other scenario, Filomena's clothes was rifled through in her room to make it look as if there had been an intruder.
Don't confuse the two.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

But Amanda was not fired (the morning mole)

Maybe the fight started over Amanda losing her job while Meridith kept hers. Getting fired could be the motivation to accuse Patrick later.

tsig,

There is only one news report that Patrick fired Amanda, and it is not very credible. It is the same report where Patrick says that he was abused by the police, but he disavowed those statements. Moreover, we know that Patrick did not fire Amanda from his trial testimony. We also know from Amanda's letter to her mother that she was planning to quit her job because she was afraid to go out at night, and that was on the morning of the fifth, IIRC. There is another mole, that Patrick did not fire her, only demoted her (telling her that she could still hand out flyers). That report comes from the same tabloid article as the "I Fired Foxy Knoxy.." article discussed above. I don't think that notion holds any water, either. How can you be demoted from a job that only pays 5 euros in the first place? I have not seen the flyer handout business documented anywhere else, and I question whether Patrick would need that particular service.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes but nothing had been taken from Filomena's room.
Amanda did not do a "run through " of the room; they had staged this burglary so knew NOTHING was removed.
Two different scenarios; the keys, phones and cash were taken from Meredith at the murder scene; the other scenario, Filomena's clothes was rifled through in her room to make it look as if there had been an intruder.
Don't confuse the two.

You are making the same error that the court makes, starting with the presumption that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty rather than innocent. Personally, I see no proof that the break-in was staged and no proof if it was that any of them staged it including Rudy. The police and the prosecution start with the assumption that it was staged and proceed to show it makes more sense that Amanda and Raffaele staged it than Rudy, therefore they did so despite the fact that the first presumption is without any proof whatsoever. This is also true with the clean up. The court makes the presumption that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty but because there is no evidence they must have cleaned up the evidence. Amanda carried a large bag therefore she used that bag to carry a large kitchen utensil. Nara has no reason to tell the court that she heard a scream if she didn't. The court just decided without any explanation that the police investigator did not ask Quintavalle about seeing Amanda, despite two witness statements to the contrary. Curatolo's getting the wrong time 8 times is ignored and the one time he gets it right is believed. The whole issue of time of death is treated the same way. An earlier time of death is not possible because that would not fit with the assumption that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. The explanation of Meredith's cell phone activity and the accusation about Amanda's call to Filomena are other examples of the same flawed reasoning.

 

[Chris C]

Apologies in advance as I really ought to know the answer but as I don't fancy traipsing through this giant thread (again...lol) or searching elsewhere, please could someone kindly clarify the following for me?

Were bare footprints of Raffaele found in the hallway?

No, the only bare footprints that where found in hallway where smaller. They tried to attribute them to Knox. Except neither amanda or meredith's dna where in the footprints. They also didn't bother comparing them to anyone other than amanda's footprints. Though I do remember mention of a footprint in amanda's room that couldn't be attributed to her. Can't remember off hand who they tried to say it belonged to.