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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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(msg #5098)

I believe RS's appeal is asking for this to be tested. Does anyone know why? If it's Rudy's it doesn't change anything for RS. If it's from unknown male then RS's defense of Rudy as the lone attacker goes out the window.

I don't entirely follow the conclusions that might be drawn if this is shown to belong to Guede, Meredith's boyfriend or an unknown male (I'm confident that it isn't Raffaele's because I believe he was never in the room), but that wasn't the point I was making (or RoseMontague in her earlier posting, if I understand her right).

The point is that 46 days after the crime, the police team desperately needed something, anything, to connect Raffaele with the room where the murder was committed. The obvious thing would have been to test the stain on the pillow for Raffaele's DNA. Why would they not have done so?

It only makes sense if they already knew that the result would not be the one they wanted. So either they knew that it couldn't possibly be Raffaele (and the bra clasp was an item that could be more easily manipulated), or they actually did the test in secret and concealed the results (as they have withheld other information in this case).
 
The point is that 46 days after the crime, the police team desperately needed something, anything, to connect Raffaele with the room where the murder was committed. The obvious thing would have been to test the stain on the pillow for Raffaele's DNA. Why would they not have done so?
1. Evidence that the police were "desperate"?
2. It's my understanding, but I don't have a cite for it, that the police wanted to go back to the apartment much earlier but the defense was opposed to it, so they didn't.
3. I don't know why they didn't test the stain then, do you?

It only makes sense if they already knew that the result would not be the one they wanted.

How would they know that?
 
A competent and honest investigating team would have taken the evidence of the break-in and traces of an intruder and began the investigation on that basis. Only if they then found unexplained facts should they have broadened their investigation.

But. there was no evidence of a break in. There was however what seemed an attempt to make it look like a break in, to the postals, to Filomena, to the Carabinieri and so on.

There is certainly nothing to suggest at first sight that the break-in was staged, contrary to your claim ("strongly suspected the staged break-in based on what they saw").

Contrary to your claim there was plenty to suggest the break in was staged. The details have been posted many times. You simply happen to think that confronted with what they saw that day the investigators should have assumed it was a real break in. They didn't, and at that point it had nothing to do with Raffaele or Amanda.

It's one thing to consider the break-in may have been staged as a possibility, it's another to ignore the break-in completely in your story to the press, right at the beginning ("early in the investigation").

They didn't ignore the break in. As far as they could ascertain there was no break in, just a simulation made to look like a break in. This is how they saw it and so this is how they reported it. You may not agree but it is what it is.

What exactly is so strange about it? Are there really no innocent reasons you could think of?

No, I've tried but no, none at all. Can you? if so please elaborate.

It makes sense for me. But it's just an opinion. Now, let's take the rest of the logical steps from her story as it is to her being a murderer.

Oh puhlease! Is that how you counter an argument? Why don't you just write a convincing counter instead of stooping to sarcasm.
 
No, I've tried but no, none at all.
That's very interesting.
Can you? if so please elaborate.
What about: they both are right :)
One of them saw the door closed. One of them saw it opened. I can't believe you couldn't think of it.


Danceme said:
Oh puhlease! Is that how you counter an argument? Why don't you just write a convincing counter instead of stooping to sarcasm.
I don't see anything to counter yet. And it's not sarcasm, I'm just interested in your scenario. State your argument. Amanda's story looks unconvincing to you. OK. What is your theory, why did she tell it that way, why does it incriminate her?


Still some of your questions are answered in the same text you derived them from.
Danceme said:
Also, if you came home with the intent on taking a shower and you found the front door wide and thought a roommate was possibly taking out the trash or otherwise outside somewhere, then I think it would be usual to sing out to the person

from Amanda's email

so i closed the door behind me
but i didnt lock it, assuming that the person who left the door open
would like to come back in. when i entered i called out if anyone was
there
, but no one responded and i assumed that if anyone was there,
they were still asleep.


Danceme said:
She says Filomena's door was closed so how come she didn't try Filomena's door or knock on it even when she noticed the blood, feces etc? How come she didn't knock on Meredith's door this time, before going to Raffaele's?

it was after i was putting back the dryer that i noticed the
**** that was left in the toilet, something that definately no one in
out house would do. i started feeling a little uncomfortable and so i
grabbed the mop from out closet and lef the house, closing and locking
the door that no one had come back through while i was in the shower,
and i returned to raffael's place.


Well she felt uncomfortable and left. Maybe she decided there couldn't be anyone sleeping and the house is empty. Most probably she cared about her own safety in the first place and leaving seemed a better choice then checking the rooms on her own.
 
I believe RS's appeal is asking for this to be tested. Does anyone know why? If it's Rudy's it doesn't change anything for RS. If it's from unknown male then RS's defense of Rudy as the lone attacker goes out the window.


If there is any justice in this world, it will turn out to be Raffeal's. :)
 
Hi Dan, could you please post link(s) to these photographs that have timestamps. Thanks.


If you were paying attention to the available evidence you would already know that most of the videos are time stamped while the photographs are not. Since we don't have the photographers log or the photo metadata, it is necessary to interpret the time of most photographs based on the condition of the rooms.

In Kermit's floor plan PPT there is a distorted composite of Amanda's room built from TV coverage of the case. The Spheron imagery was taken on the first day before anything was moved but may not be online.




I don't recall offhand where I picked that up. Are you claiming that this is not true? Would it change your belief in any way if I did find the cite?


Are there photographs showing this part of the house up close?


Yes. The best ones were already posted to this thread.


The placement of the two lamps on the floor at the ends of the bed indicates to me that they were used for lighting the movement of the body and the manipulation of evidence after the murder.


You're going to have to explain this. What movement requires this extra setup of lighting on the floor for which to overhead room light is insufficient?
 
Danceme wrote:
It appears the very first investigators on the scene strongly suspected the staged break-in based on what they saw and not one investigator since has believed it was real.

Antony wrote:
I wouldn't take anything that the investigators say they believe at face value. This is the team that has mishandled evidence, misrepresented evidence, concealed evidence, destroyed evidence, abused suspects and leaked distorted information to the media - all with an apparent agenda of creating a wholly non-existent certainty about their favoured result.

Why would they do that? Wasn't there more than enough evidence against Rudy? As to "the team" who are you referring to specifically? The Postal Police? The Carabinieri? The Scientific Police? The prosecuter's office? Are you suggestion they were all in collusion to railroad AK and RS?


At the time they found the alleged break-in, there was no evidence against Rudy.

To say there was collusion or a conspiracy is a simplistic way of looking at things, because it implies every individual involved made a deliberate choice. The whole purpose of institutions like legal systems, though, is to transform the potential chaos of a hundred individual decisions into order by assigning roles that members of the institution agree to respect.

In the Italian legal system, the prosecutor is the leader of the investigation. It is natural he would consult with the police captain or chief, but it is not likely he would be looking for input from anyone lower on the totem pole. They are there to report to their superiors and follow orders.

Giobbi thought Amanda misbehaved; no doubt he reported that to Mignini, and Mignini was only too happy to have another outlet for his bizarre theories about ritualistic slayings. Now imagine yourself in the position of one of the underling cops.

"Did you hear what they figured out about the murder?"

"Yeah, the prosecutor [i.e., the well-educated, powerful, high and mighty] said it was an orgy!"

If you were a cop and you were assigned to find out more about an orgy that ended in a murder, wouldn't you sign up?

Once the defendants are behind bars, there are no provisions for dissension. Who among the police forces, lab techs or prison employees is going to question or defy the judge's ruling? That's the job of the defense, not the brotherhood of the state employees.
 
If there is any justice in this world, it will turn out to be Raffeal's. :)

I doubt Raffaele's defense would be requesting a test on it if there was even a remote chance it was his.

The best justice would be a determination of the truth and making sure the guilty are punished and the innocent are not. If there is any justice still to be found in this case I hope the truth becomes clear.
 
(msg #5117)

Why would they do that?

We can only guess why they did do it and continue to do it, but the fact is that this case is littered with police negligence and deceit. IMO, the most likely reason is that they wanted to "solve" this case the easy way: simply choose their culprits and do what they needed to do to get them convicted. The 2 people who reported the crime will do - juries never ask why someone who has just committed a murder would call the police shortly afterwards. It's much safer than tangling with someone who might really be a murderer!

Wasn't there more than enough evidence against Rudy?

Again, we can't really know what the reasons are for continuing to pursue Amanda and Raffaele once Guede was arrested by German police. Perhaps the pro-guilt faction can explain why 3 convictions for a crime are better than 1.

As to "the team" who are you referring to specifically? The Postal Police? The Carabinieri? The Scientific Police? The prosecuter's office? Are you suggestion they were all in collusion to railroad AK and RS?

Really, Alt+F4, you do ask a lot of questions. The acts of negligence and manipulation by investigators in this case are in the public domain, and the people responsible for them are known.

No. There was no falshoods fed to him by the police in regard to the DNA evidence on the knife. He decided to write about it in his diary, he was not forced.

You're not suggesting that the spurious positive reading for Meredith's DNA didn't originate from the police? It never had any credibility other than to those on the pro-guilt side, but Raffaele still trusted the police to provide sound information. That is why he speculated about a transfer of the DNA, apparently via Amanda's hand.
 
I don't entirely follow the conclusions that might be drawn if this is shown to belong to Guede, Meredith's boyfriend or an unknown male (I'm confident that it isn't Raffaele's because I believe he was never in the room), but that wasn't the point I was making (or RoseMontague in her earlier posting, if I understand her right).

The point is that 46 days after the crime, the police team desperately needed something, anything, to connect Raffaele with the room where the murder was committed. The obvious thing would have been to test the stain on the pillow for Raffaele's DNA. Why would they not have done so?

It only makes sense if they already knew that the result would not be the one they wanted. So either they knew that it couldn't possibly be Raffaele (and the bra clasp was an item that could be more easily manipulated), or they actually did the test in secret and concealed the results (as they have withheld other information in this case).

Yes, this still makes no sense that the police would not test it then or now. The police know the bra clasp evidence is weak and could even be thrown out on appeal. But they don't want this possible semen stain tested?
 
They didn't ignore the break in. As far as they could ascertain there was no break in, just a simulation made to look like a break in. This is how they saw it and so this is how they reported it. You may not agree but it is what it is.

Why don't we back up and look at the third suspect?

In the weeks before the murder, Rudy had been caught inside two buildings where he did not belong. In one incident, he entered via a window and pulled a knife and threatened the homeowner who confronted him. In the other incident, Rudy was broke into a Milan school. The police found him with a woman's gold watch and one of the small hammers used to break bus windows in an emergency. He had a knife and a few small items stolen from the school. He also had a laptop and cellphone stolen from an office in Perugia. This links him to an office that was burgled by throwing a rock and entering via a second floor window.

Rudy had no job, but still had money. Judging from the breaking and entering incidents, he was making a living as a thief.

Rudy may have met Meredith, but she was involved with someone else. None of her friends had ever heard her mention Rudy. Rudy had visited the flat downstairs, but never the upstairs apartment. He didn't belong in the flat, but there is overwhelming evidence that Rudy Guede was in the room when Meredith was killed. His DNA was found on and inside the victim. His handprints and shoe prints were in the victims blood under the body.

So why didn't the Perugia police believe that Rudy got into the cottage via a window?

Remember that the police had already solved the crime. A few days after the murder, they had declared the crime solved by purely psychological methods. Amanda sent a "see you later" text message to Patrick early in the evening. Later that night Amanda, Raffaele and Patrick met and killed Meredith in some kind of ritual sex game. They had a perp walk and a parade to celebrate it being solved.

The broken window was inconvenient to this theory, but easily discarded. It must have been faked to mislead the police into thinking the crime started as a burglary. The theory of the crime did not change.

When they didn't find evidence of Amanda and Raffaele in the murder room, they just postulated a rather remarkable cleanup. Somehow the two suspects cleaned away all the microscopic trace evidence pointing to themselves while leaving plenty of blood and no traces of the cleaning itself. The cleaned areas looks no different from the areas not cleaned. The theory of the crime did not change.

When evidence came in and pointing to an unknown male in the room with Meredith, they just swapped out Patrick and swapped in Rudy. The theory of the crime did not change.

But now Amanda has gone from letting in Patrick, who she knew quite well to letting in Rudy, a guy she had run into a couple of times but never visited, phoned or emailed. A guy with a history of pulling a knife when cornered and illegal entry via windows.

Wasn't there a broken window in this case? :rolleyes:

When the theory stays fixed despite the evidence, it's called "tunnel vision".
 
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2. It's my understanding, but I don't have a cite for it, that the police wanted to go back to the apartment much earlier but the defense was opposed to it, so they didn't.


How do you know that they didn't go back into the cottage much earlier?
 
It wasn't a confession. Confessions follow the form "I did it" Amanda said "He did it" there's a difference.

Once again this is merely a semantic quibble. The psychological processes are the same whatever false statement the police are attempting to elicit.

First you state that Amanda internalised a false confession then you ask "How could she do that?" You would have to prove that she did in fact internalise false confession before you can ask the question.

Better yet prove how "I did It" = "He did it"

Once again you have not answered the question. I asked how her false witness statement could have all the characteristics I listed of an internalised false confession, given that Amanda did not know those characteristics well enough to fake them?

You haven't considered the possibility that Amanda was lying and not internalizing a false confession.

Her accusation has all the characteristics of a lie in that it was contrary to fact.

It was indeed contrary to fact. That's one of the characteristics of an internalised false confession. But how do you explain the other characteristics of an internalised false confession it has?

Kevin, I thought we wacked this mole already? If it was Amanda he touched with the knife then why the heck isn't her DNA on it? How can touching one person with a knife deposit another person's DNA on it?

It is getting a bit repetitious, isn't it? Like I said last time, you have failed to show that Raffaele knew enough about DNA forensics not to make such a mistake. All this argument proves is that Raffaele at the time didn't know very much about DNA forensics, and thought that it was possible that such an event could leave Meredith's DNA on the blade but not Amanda's.

You're creating a false dichotomy here where either Raffaele is either both innocent and an infallible DNA expert, or guilty. Why can't he be innocent and ignorant of DNA forensics?

Putting the time of death before 10pm doesn't do anything to prove that AK and RS are innocent.

Just for starters it completely destroy's Mignini's case, which as far as I can tell the bulk of the guilters still subscribe to word for word.

It also goes a very long way towards clearing them of guilt entirely, since their alibi for the 21:00-22:00 period is currently much better supported than their alibi for the 23:00-24:00 period.

You are saying that the entire murder, sexual assault and everything else that occured for which there is evidence for occurred between 9:05 and 10:00. Ok, considering how short that amount of time is, it's more likely that more than one person was involved.

Perhaps, but firstly this is neither here nor there if the "other people" besides Rudy were not Raffaele and Amanda. Secondly this theory still has the problem of the total lack of forensic evidence for such "other people" being present. Thirdly it strikes me personally as very much a zebra hypothesis: When I see a crime scene that a single murderer would have to have been fairly busy to have accomplished in an hour, I think that the most likely explanation is that the murderer had a fairly busy hour.

Ok, throw out her police interrrogtions. You still have a bunch of inconsistent and contradictory statement from them in regard to her email back home, her trial testimony and his prison diary (none of which were coerced).

I simply do not understand this line of argument. If Raffaele and Amanda could not have been present at the time Meredith died, they couldn't have done it, and what they did or did not write in some diary long after the fact has no power to change that.

You can pile up these supposed "gotchas" as high as you like, but none of them have any bearing on the important facts of this case.

There has been no evidence presented that RS watched an episode of Naruto the night of the crime. It was not brought up by the prosecution or the defense at trial. It is noting more than something RS's defense team wants examined on appeal.

I thought we already went over this. The evidence that Naruto was watched comes from the hard drive images supplied by the police. It's a hard fact recorded in ones and zeroes.

I struggle to see why you think that the fact it was not raised at the trial changes this.

How? When?

By picking it up and using as a knife, some time after hypothetical evildoer(s) killed Meredith with it, cleaned it and returned it to Raffaele's drawer.

No, it doesn't make much sense. Then again neither does the prosecution theory that they cleaned the blade thoroughly with bleach - magical bleach that wipes away all blood cells leaving only a tiny minority of non-blood cells intact but with detectable DNA - but didn't clean the handle at all.

Amanda said she came home that morning took a shower, changed and dryed her hair in the other bathroom, and guess what? Only one fingerprint of her's was found in the entire apartment! If fingerprint can go "missing" why not DNA too?

Is it correct to take this as an acknowledgement that no other forensic evidence links Amanda to the crime?

Since both Filomena and the police went through her stuff we can't be certain of the position of the glass when the window was broken.

No. We cannot be certain. That eliminates all the persuasive evidence that the break-in was faked.

So Rudy magically leaves no fingerprints while ransacking Filomena's room but then equally magically leaves them all over the rest of the apartment. Was Rudy wearing gloves when he broke into the kindergarten?

If you check you will find that Rudy left one identifiable fingerprint, total, and I believe that one was in blood.

How could Amanda's hard drive possible confirm her alibi? Her alibi was that she was at his apartment and her computer was at her apartment. As for his computer, good gosh, what didn't he supposedly watch that evening?

As for Amanda's computer it depends how it was set up and what Amanda did with it, and what her computing habits were. It could well prove nothing.

As for his computer, you seem to think it incredible that a couple of twentysomethings might spend the evening at home watching movies they downloaded. I find absolutely nothing incredible about that at all.

Mignini got a lot of it wrong but it still doesn't mean they are not guilty. You conveniently left a lot out of your list, such as:

1. Why was Amanda's lamp in Meredith's room?
2. On Nov. 2, why, in the 48 minutes between 12:07 – 12:55 did Amanda spend only a total of 23 seconds trying to phone Meredith though she stated she was “panicked” as to her whereabouts.
3. The pair were back at her apartment by 12:34. The Postal Police didn’t show up for another 21 minutes with Meredith’s phones. Why didn’t Amanda stand outside Meredith’s door, call her phones and listen for rings?
4.Both Amanda’s mother and Filomena told Amanda to call the police based on what she told them, why she didn’t.
5. Why did Raffaelle tell the police that nothing was taken from Filomena's room when there was no way he could have known that?
6. Why didn't Amanda flush the toilet?
7. Why were their no bloody shoeprints leading from the bedroom to the bloody bathmat? FBI guy Steve Moore said no one could have left that room without blood on their shoes, yet there were no bloody prints, why?
8. If it was Rudy that was cleaning up in the bathroom why would he go back into Meredith's room after he had just cleaned up?
9. Why would Rudy bother to lock Meredith's door when he made no attempt to cover up evidence of his being there?

The short answer is, people do weird things, especially in unusual situations. It doesn't make them guilty or innocent.

Guilters engage in the most amazing mental contortions to find some way that absolutely any oddity can possibly be construed as evidence that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. Then once they have found this interpretation, they boldly assert it to be the obvious conclusion and try to push the burden of proof on to everyone else to prove that their interpretation is incorrect.

So Amanda didn't flush. So what? To a rational person it indicates nothing either way. Maybe she was lazy, maybe she wanted to put off dealing with it, maybe she wanted to make whoever left it there deal with it, maybe it was all part of a master plan to frame Rudy, we don't know. If it was a master plan to frame Rudy that's the weirdest hypothesis of the bunch by far, because if they were in on it then they surely knew he'd left bloody evidence all over the murder room so leaving his poop in the toilet would be totally redundant.

To the guilters, the interpretation that makes Amanda Knox guiltiest is the one and only possible interpretation, and this is so obvious that you don't even need to explain your reasoning, you can just raise it as a rhetorical question. To everybody else, this kind of argument just looks silly.

The long answer is we've already whacked these moles and you know it. We've discussed in detail phone calls, footprints, Rudy's likely itinerary, the poop and so forth and none of it raises any difficulties for the hypothesis that Rudy killed Meredith by himself and that Amanda and Raffaele were two convenient patsies who didn't do anything but bumble around for a bit before they called the police, and then cooperated with them as best they could.
 
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I don't get this argument at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the way it usually works, State experts generally being the state's employees, coroners, police officers, testing labs etc. and it is the defense who hires outside experts to offer the other side of the story. Stefanoni and Biondi represent the forensics testing lab and can both testify as to the correctness of the protocols used, no? Stefanoni wasn't on trial with Biondi a witness to her defense. They both testified from the point of view of State's evidence did they not with him corroborating her testimony?

Stefanoni's boss was sitting at the prosecutors table, not as a witness but as a consultant and adviser for the prosecution. The people doing the testing are supposed to be unbiased. This puts pressure on Stefanoni as a witness to deliver results favorable to the prosecution and in my opinion, is a very obvious conflict of interest.
 
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Again, we can't really know what the reasons are for continuing to pursue Amanda and Raffaele once Guede was arrested by German police. Perhaps the pro-guilt faction can explain why 3 convictions for a crime are better than 1.

Because there is more evidence for the three, rather than the one.

Really, Alt+F4, you do ask a lot of questions.

Yes, I do.

The acts of negligence and manipulation by investigators in this case are in the public domain, and the people responsible for them are known.

Please give the names of those people responsible and give the specific details on how they are responsible, exactly what they did, when they did it and why they did it. After all, according to you, it's in the public domain. Thanks.

You're not suggesting that the spurious positive reading for Meredith's DNA didn't originate from the police?

RS, according to his own account he heard it on television. Nothing more is known about it. Do you have further information?

...but Raffaele still trusted the police to provide sound information.

He was charged with murder! Why the heck would he trust the police? They were charging him with a murder that he says he didn't commit. Please provide evidence that he "still trusted the police" at that time.
 
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Stefanoni's boss was sitting at the prosecutors table, not as a witness but as a consultant and adviser for the prosecution. The people doing the testing are supposed to be unbiased. This puts pressure on Stefanoni as a witness to deliver results favorable to the prosecution and in my opinion, is a very obvious conflict of interest.

I would also add that it seems unusual to me that Stefanoni acted as both a collector of evidence as well as the tester of the same evidence.
 
Like I said last time, you have failed to show that Raffaele knew enough about DNA forensics not to make such a mistake. All this argument proves is that Raffaele at the time didn't know very much about DNA forensics, and thought that it was possible that such an event could leave Meredith's DNA on the blade but not Amanda's.

My gosh, he was a college student. Is he an absolute moron or just failed 5th grade science and every science class after that?

It also goes a very long way towards clearing them of guilt entirely, since their alibi for the 21:00-22:00 period is currently much better supported than their alibi for the 23:00-24:00 period.

Again, Kevin, stop pretending that the Naruto story has been proven as either an alibi or evidence. It's neither. Stop with this lie. They have no alibi, deal with it.

The evidence that Naruto was watched comes from the hard drive images supplied by the police.

Please link to the images supplied by the police.

I struggle to see why you think that the fact it was not raised at the trial changes this.

Because if its not raised at the trial it's NOT EVIDENCE!!!!!! If you want to say it's evidence of his innocence that was not raised at trial, ok, then show it to us.

If you check you will find that Rudy left one identifiable fingerprint, total, and I believe that one was in blood.

I don't know about the blood, but Amanda left only one identifiable fingerprint too, and she lived there. So in regard to fingerprint evidence, Rudy is innocent too, right?

As for his computer, you seem to think it incredible that a couple of twentysomethings might spend the evening at home watching movies they downloaded. I find absolutely nothing incredible about that at all.

Watching movies isn't all they said they did....when they could rembember or get their stories straight about what they did.

Guilters engage in the most amazing mental contortions...

The childish name calling doesn't advance your argument and makes you sound petty. But if you choose to, then call me a Gemini as well.

... to find some way that absolutely any oddity can possibly be construed as evidence that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty

Yet YOU, and I address you as an individual Kevin not as a member of a mind set (though you don't give me the same consideration) dismisses all the oddities that raise suspicion.

So Amanda didn't flush. So what? To a rational person it indicates nothing either way. Maybe she was lazy, maybe she wanted to put off dealing with it, maybe she wanted to make whoever left it there deal with it, maybe it was all part of a master plan to frame Rudy, we don't know.

Good gosh, it was flushing a toilet, not building an artificial kidney.

If it was a master plan to frame Rudy that's the weirdest hypothesis of the bunch by far, because if they were in on it then they surely knew he'd left bloody evidence all over the murder room so leaving his poop in the toilet would be totally redundant.

Again, so why not flush?
 
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text messages

Ok. On a similar thought, why are AK and RS considered "boyfriend and girlfriend" when they had known each other only 6 days?



Who alleged this? Amanda? As for the text, did Meredith respond?

I suppose that since Amanda spent almost every night at Raffaele's place, they were boyfriend and girlfriend. A bit of a whirlwind romance. I don't happen to recall exactly where I heard about the photos, but Charlie may know. Yes, Meredith responded that she was meeting some friends, and Amanda responded to the effect that maybe they would bump into each other. I think Candace Dempsey's book has the actual texts of the messages, but I do not have it in front of me.
 
Alt +F4, I am quickly becomming a huge fan. Keep up the very good work.

I would love to hear just how you think this whole murder did go down, because I have a feeling, it's simular to what I have been thinking as well.
 
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