Insane Clown Posse's song about 'Miracles' called worst song ever

[Ferguson]

I don't disagree with you here but there is the issue of "Juggalo Holocaust"
http://juggaloholocaust.wordpress.com/

These people are organizing a hate campaign, encouraging people to randomly punch "Juggalos" on Halloween. They also encourage violence against "Juggalos" in general and people has been assaulted. This is where the rumour of Tila Tequila's assault first surfaced.

It important to point out the majority of fans don't advocate violence, they're just there to see a concert. This hate fueled counter movement doesn't distinguish between the good and the bad.

But is the counter movement hate-fueled? Or is it a dumb-on-purpose satire taking you for a ride? Obviously only those who don't get it would think the juggaloholocaust advocating violence is actually advocating violence...

 

[Derwoods]

But is the counter movement hate-fueled? Or is it a dumb-on-purpose satire taking you for a ride? Obviously only those who don't get it would think the juggaloholocaust advocating violence is actually advocating violence...

plus even if it was, the Juggalos should have known that acting like that would lead to trouble (not that anyone should be subjected to violence) I mean how hard is it to turn down the volume and wipe off the clown makeup?

 

[Furcifer]

I actually encounter this sort of argument from new agers all the time. "The first amendment allows me to say what I want, so you can't criticize me." (It's a pretty good paraphrase, though it's obviously not exactly what they say.) The obvious counter is, of course, "The first amendment allows me to criticize what you say, and to even say that you shouldn't be saying it."

3bodyproblem seems to be throwing a straw man into the mix as well. i.e. "You think ICP should know better than to say these things. Therefore, I infer that you want them to be censored by law and I invoke the first amendment against the argument I infer that you're making."

That's somewhat true.

But when we move from criticizing to talking about imposing a moral obligation the First Amendment is always going to be invoked.

Why don't they have a moral obligation? Because their free speech is protected, that's why.

If they had any moral obligation they would have been out of business years ago. As would many artists and directors, and religions. Heck this forum probably wouldn't exist for us to discuss if the "moral majority" had their say.

It's a terrible argument that's obviously meant to avoid answering criticism.

You can criticize their work all day long and not have the first Amendment ever enter the conversation. It's when you suggest they have a moral obligation to not produce work that is anti-intellectual that you have a problem. Nobody's avoiding that.

Your example doesn't make very much sense in the context of "Miracles" and ICP though. You're talking about new agers saying "You can't criticize me". You can criticize this song, write a novel and put posters on the sides of buses if you want.

 

[Furcifer]

But is the counter movement hate-fueled? Or is it a dumb-on-purpose satire taking you for a ride? Obviously only those who don't get it would think the juggaloholocaust advocating violence is actually advocating violence...

 

[Furcifer]

plus even if it was, the Juggalos should have known that acting like that would lead to trouble (not that anyone should be subjected to violence) I mean how hard is it to turn down the volume and wipe off the clown makeup?

lol, the late night crew is in

If they could find the little buggers causing problems and doing violent things it would probably be a service to society. Violence begets violence.

But punching kids in clown make-up on Halloween, not the best idea. Especially in Detroit, they all got guns

 

[Zanders]

By begging the question you are suggesting (your) morals should dictate the content of movies or songs. That would violate the author or directors right to free speech.

If you don't like it, find something else. Apparently it's a big magical world out there

I don't generally waste my time looking for juggalos to argue with, but if I stumble across one trying to defend ICP like I did (oddly enough) on this forum, I can't help but comment. Anyway, that is cute that you are still claiming that I want to take away anyone's rights to bad taste. I never said anything like that. But there are facts out there, and people can choose to accept or ignore them. There are people out there that still believe the earth is flat, but it is clearly not. Should we not try to enlighten them and point them in the right direction? They have all of the right in the world to stand by their beliefs that the world is flat, so should we just ignore them and never confront them on their mistake? I can give a large lists of reasons why ICPs music is garbage lacking in value, but I'm sure that would get tedious. Anyway, you can listen to them all you want, just don't try to defend them in ways that are invalid. I really need to stop this, I am beginning to sound horribly pretentious.

 

[Furcifer]

I don't generally waste my time looking for juggalos to argue with, but if I stumble across one trying to defend ICP like I did (oddly enough) on this forum, I can't help but comment. Anyway, that is cute that you are still claiming that I want to take away anyone's rights to bad taste. I never said anything like that. But there are facts out there, and people can choose to accept or ignore them. There are people out there that still believe the earth is flat, but it is clearly not. Should we not try to enlighten them and point them in the right direction? They have all of the right in the world to stand by their beliefs that the world is flat, so should we just ignore them and never confront them on their mistake? I can give a large lists of reasons why ICPs music is garbage lacking in value, but I'm sure that would get tedious. Anyway, you can listen to them all you want, just don't try to defend them in ways that are invalid. I really need to stop this, I am beginning to sound horribly pretentious.

Yes, you really do. You don't have any clue what a "Juggalo" is. I mean you should be able to figure that out by now and you obviously haven't. You have a very bad habit of trying to label people so you can classify them. It's a strawman.

Again you're comparing the Insane Clown Posse, and "Juggalos", which are personas in dress up acting out fiction to real people with real world views. If you really believe clowns in scary make-up are the same as flat earthers or holistic healers then you are correct in your beliefs. In that case I suggest you get help separating reality from fiction.

 

[schrodingasdawg]

. . . It's a strawman.

. . . If you really believe clowns in scary make-up are the same as flat earthers or holistic healers then you are correct [sic] in your beliefs. . . .

Try not to accuse someone else of creating a straw man while attacking another straw man in the same post.

Speaking of which, you still don't seem to understand that the first amendment is about laws that limit free speech, and has nothing to do even with what one may be morally obliged to say (or to not say) as long as no-one is suggesting that what they see as moral obligations are made into law.

If you want to argue that there is no moral imperative for ICP to not spread an anti-intellectual message or tell kids to do drugs or whatever, then actually either provide a counter-argument or ask the other person to elaborate on why they think differently. Don't bring the first amendment into this unless we're talking about laws.

 

[Furcifer]

Speaking of which, you still don't seem to understand that the first amendment is about laws that limit free speech, and has nothing to do even with what one may be morally obliged to say (or to not say) as long as no-one is suggesting that what they see as moral obligations are made into law.

What makes you think a band that has been doing the same thing for 20 years is suddenly going to stop on their own? If we aren't talking about forcing them to stop then the question "Do they have a moral obligation" is irrelevant. My morals do not, can not dictate what someone else does.

If you want to argue that there is no moral imperative for ICP to not spread an anti-intellectual message or tell kids to do drugs or whatever, then actually either provide a counter-argument or ask the other person to elaborate on why they think differently. Don't bring the first amendment into this unless we're talking about laws.

Yeah, here's the problem. This is exactly why the law gets invoked. An anti-intellectual message is protected under free speech, encouraging the delinquency of a minor isn't.
You realize of course that was a joke, a lude comment, and in no way is "telling kids to do drugs". In the exact same way "Go play in traffic" isn't advocating suicide.

 

[Zanders]

Yes, you really do. You don't have any clue what a "Juggalo" is. I mean you should be able to figure that out by now and you obviously haven't. You have a very bad habit of trying to label people so you can classify them. It's a strawman.

Again you're comparing the Insane Clown Posse, and "Juggalos", which are personas in dress up acting out fiction to real people with real world views. If you really believe clowns in scary make-up are the same as flat earthers or holistic healers then you are correct in your beliefs. In that case I suggest you get help separating reality from fiction.

Ok, it's a joke. Yes, it is their right. Is it constructive or any good? No. Is it destructive and degenerative? Yes. My point still stands. I'm not saying that all juggalos are delinquents, I'm sure some intelligent people out there can somehow put up with constantly being barraged by stupity while listening to them. And you make the mistake of saying that all juggalos dress up and act out fiction. If I said that all of them did earlier, that was a mistake. Juggalos is a catch-all term for ICP fans, and there are moderate to extreme juggalos. ICP call all of their fans juggalos. But they both are wasting their time listening to garbage. I'm not talking about the fans with my last post, I am talking about ICP as a whole. Even if it is a "joke", the point I made still stands as well. ICP have no value and being intentionally "stupid" is not an excuse, it is the problem. Did I say to take away their right to be stupid? No. Go read over my post again.

 

[schrodingasdawg]

You realize of course that was a joke, a lude comment, and in no way is "telling kids to do drugs". In the exact same way "Go play in traffic" isn't advocating suicide.

This is true. It was a poor example for me to use, so I rescind it.

I'm still fairly set on the rest of what I said, but you seem set on your stance as well. So it seems fruitless to engage in further argument. And I go back to lurking ...

 

[Furcifer]

This is true. It was a poor example for me to use, so I rescind it.

I'm still fairly set on the rest of what I said, but you seem set on your stance as well. So it seems fruitless to engage in further argument. And I go back to lurking ...

Gotcha. I don't really disagree with what you are saying, you are correct. It's just that in this case I believe it extends beyond criticism, of which there is no shortage when it comes to ICP.

 

[Furcifer]

Is it constructive or any good? No. Is it destructive and degenerative? Yes.

How do you know this?

I say it's as constructive as you make it. I say it's as degenerative and destructive as you make it.

Please support your answers in the above with some evidence.

 

[Zanders]

How do you know this?

I say it's as constructive as you make it. I say it's as degenerative and destructive as you make it.

Please support your answers in the above with some evidence.

How can something that strives to be stupid and tasteless be useful in any way? Garbage in, garbage out. I think the behavior of the overwhelming majority of the fans kind of speaks for its self, but I admit that isn't evidence. I can still give you plenty of reasons why their music lacks any real talent and is overall lacking in value. I personally beleive that entertainment should be intellectually stimulating in some way, or else it is not worth anyone's time. But most people would rather turn their brains off and veg out. That's actually why there are so many problems in the world right now when it comes to anti-intellectualism and escapism. People like things to appeal to their most base emotions and the lowest common denominator. By your logic nobody should be able to criticize any entertainment and it is all equally valuable. That is simply not true, sorry.


(Also, you just made me lose the game)

 

[Furcifer]

How can something that strives to be stupid and tasteless be useful in any way? Garbage in, garbage out. I think the behavior of the overwhelming majority of the fans kind of speaks for its self, but I admit that isn't evidence. I can still give you plenty of reasons why their music lacks any real talent and is overall lacking in value. I personally beleive that entertainment should be intellectually stimulating in some way, or else it is not worth anyone's time. But most people would rather turn their brains off and veg out. That's actually why there are so many problems in the world right now when it comes to anti-intellectualism and escapism. People like things to appeal to their most base emotions and the lowest common denominator. By your logic nobody should be able to criticize any entertainment and it is all equally valuable. That is simply not true, sorry.


(Also, you just made me lose the game)

Dammit, I have sigs turned off. You just made me lose the game.

Over course that isn't evidence, that's not even possible. An overwhelming majority of fans can't be distinguished from the average joe. Even among the hardcore fans, the "Juggalos", a very small portion of them have what we would consider "bad behaviour". The hardcore fans are less likely to have bad behaviour than the general fans. It's like any concert or event or gathering, you always get a few dicks who get drunk and cause trouble. Heck, I bet you'd see more violence or "bad attitudes" on a golf course these days. Be thankful golf "Juggalos" never get together in groups bigger than 4 and they keep them at least 350 yards from one another.

I certainly wish things were more intellectually stimulating, but that's not always the case when it comes to entertainment. My favourite shows on TV right now are NOVA, Nature, POV, Family Guy, Fringe and I think Chuck's pretty funny. There's no particular order, it depends on the episode. None the less I'd say my tastes are slightly more refined than average and still half of what I watch is less than "intellectual". Family Guy is definitely anti-intellectual.

When I listen to music a majority of the time it's "good" music. Technical, refined, poetic, intellectual everything that makes good music good. But there are times when I want something different and I'll take out my Modeski, Martin and Wood and I'll throw in my WEEN or, if I'm in the mood some, ICP.

And all music has some value. I don't mind listening to ICP when I'm driving, it keeps me entertained and lets me vent my road rage. It's not bad for working out either.

Maybe it's just a part of growing up in this area, but I think Detroiters have more eclectic tastes (or can have). From the time I was 16 to 20 I probably saw 50 concerts a year. There isn't much to do in this area, but Detroit gets every single act that comes through the mid west. And as long as you had about $15 bucks you could go to a show.

Then there's the radio. I don't know if it's still true, but Detroit had the most crowded airwaves in the World at one point, or maybe it was second to New York? We've got more than 30 stations to choose from on the FM dial.

I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is there is a ton of music out there. I've listened to a lot of it. I had 2 friends that worked at the University station for about 15 years, at times we were getting a dozen albums a week to listen to. You should have heard some of the stuff we listened to so you didn't have to. I can say with virtual certainty ICP isn't the worst band in history, and Miracles isn't the worst song ever. YMMV

 

[Zanders]

I can say with virtual certainty ICP isn't the worst band in history, and Miracles isn't the worst song ever.

I guess that's that is true. (Even though I think they pretty far up there. Sorry )

I apologize for being so rude and insulting about everything. I need to back off a little bit on the heavy handedness, sorry if I sound like too much of an elitist.

 

[Furcifer]

I guess that's that is true. (Even though I think they pretty far up there. Sorry )

I apologize for being so rude and insulting about everything. I need to back off a little bit on the heavy handedness, sorry if I sound like too much of an elitist.

lol, same here. It's all good, no punches were thrown, nobody got hurt. And we both lost the game.

 

[Furcifer]

Try not to accuse someone else of creating a straw man while attacking another straw man in the same post.

Speaking of which, you still don't seem to understand that the first amendment is about laws that limit free speech, and has nothing to do even with what one may be morally obliged to say (or to not say) as long as no-one is suggesting that what they see as moral obligations are made into law.

If you want to argue that there is no moral imperative for ICP to not spread an anti-intellectual message or tell kids to do drugs or whatever, then actually either provide a counter-argument or ask the other person to elaborate on why they think differently. Don't bring the first amendment into this unless we're talking about laws.

Incidentaly, this thread over in Current Events by Ron kind of deal with the same issue:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184274

I think it's a similar issue with morality and porn. You'll notice how it slowly drifts into the same discussion about free speech.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Article about/interview with Insane Clown Posse in the Guardian today (by Jon Ronson):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god

 

[Aepervius]

How can something that strives to be stupid and tasteless be useful in any way? Garbage in, garbage out. I think the behavior of the overwhelming majority of the fans kind of speaks for its self, but I admit that isn't evidence. I can still give you plenty of reasons why their music lacks any real talent and is overall lacking in value. I personally beleive that entertainment should be intellectually stimulating in some way, or else it is not worth anyone's time. But most people would rather turn their brains off and veg out. That's actually why there are so many problems in the world right now when it comes to anti-intellectualism and escapism. People like things to appeal to their most base emotions and the lowest common denominator.

You DO realize people said the same things about rock n roll, then later for hard rock too ? They probably said the same things about earlier music epoch.

"Those young kid, they are hearing at heretical music, the society is going down the drain because of them and their fan"

Everybody get off the lawn from Zanders.