Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Massei’s reasoning on the clasp looks worse and worse each time I read it. He wrote, “Moreover, they [note: Stefanoni’s explanations and answers] were also considered acceptable by the defendants’ defence teams themselves for the greater part of the results which the Forensics biologist had obtained. This refers in particular to all the traces, but not just those, of Rudy Guede, the results of which were fully accepted and in relation to which the defence teams had insisted on the theory of Rudy Guede’s responsibility and, it must be added, Dr. Stefanoni (in examining specimen 165B) did not change either the methodology or the interpretive criteria.”

The first problem with his argument is that it ignores that the clasp was a mixture, unlike many of the other samples, and mixtures are more subjective in interpretation. The second problem is that Dr. Tagliabracci is not Rudy Guede’s expert witness and may never have seen the electropherograms related to his trial. I cannot speak for Dr. Tagliabracci, but I accept the DNA forensics evidence provisionally because I have never seen it myself; if it were as flawed as the clasp profile, then the DNA evidence against him would be equally weak.

More generally, the pro-guilt advocates and Barbie Nadeau have an argument that runs something like the one offered by Massei: You accept the (DNA, shoeprint, footprint) evidence against Guede, yet the same forensics team that collected evidence against him collected evidence against Knox and Sollecito. Therefore, you are being inconsistent in rejecting the latter evidence. The errors in this forensic fallacy ought to be made explicit: First, it ignores when the evidence was collected. The forensic data made Guede a suspect, but Sollecito and Knox were already suspects by the time the forensic data were interpreted. Thus cognitive bias could only come into play for Knox and Sollecito, but not for Guede. Second, the pro-guilt argument pretends that all forensic evidence is equal in quality, but we know that this is not the case with the bra clasp or the knife profile. Third, this argument could be extended to pieces of evidence that was initially contested, but no longer are. For example, the prosecution could have said to the defense that the defense accepts that Guede’s shoes made the prints in the hallway; therefore, it should accept that Sollecito’s shoe and Amanda’s shoe each made a print in Meredith’s room. Yet it is now clear that all of the prints belong to Guede; even Massei does not definitively attribute to Sollecito the shoe print ILE formerly did.

The fallacy becomes more obvious when one considers the converse. One could argue with equal validity that ILE’s forensics team was wrong about the shoe prints; therefore, they are automatically wrong about everything concerning Knox and Sollecito. If that argument does not make sense, then neither does Massei’s.

Excellent post. Massei's basically saying, "Either you accept all DNA evidence as valid, or none of it's valid" - in general, and not even relating to this specific case! Along with the 'more loci matching than not' theory, it's another complete nonsense argument.
 
That the sentencing report has to rely on such weak 'evidence' is quite telling. It's what almost makes me wonder if it was done deliberately, in order that the verdict could be overturned - why create an argument that's so very easy to attack?
I'm a layman when it comes to Italian law, but from what I've read it appears that the appeal is granted automatically and in practice it is a complete retrial. Doesn't it make the first instance verdict motivation quite irrelevant?
That would explain the sloppiness and general poor quality of the report.

But again, I'm not an expert.
 
I'm a layman when it comes to Italian law, but from what I've read it appears that the appeal is granted automatically and in practice it is a complete retrial. Doesn't it make the first instance verdict motivation quite irrelevant?
That would explain the sloppiness and general poor quality of the report.

But again, I'm not an expert.
The appeal documents pretty much focus exclusively on the sentencing report in their arguments, and quote a lot from it, so in that sense it seems very important. I'm a bit confused about the whole appeals process, actually; I had thought it was a retrial too, but then I've been told it depends on whether any new evidence is admitted so, I'm not really sure now!
 
A few minor points which have stood out to me regarding Rudy/the break-in from information in the judge's report:

1. When Rudy was found at the nursery school with a backpack full of stolen items, one of these items was a gold women's watch. It's been alleged that Rudy found with stolen laptop doesn't mean he was the one who stole it. But I think the watch stands out as something that Rudy had no reason to be "purchasing" since he was single. This, along with the similar break-in at the law office, reinforces the idea that he was the one who stole those items and not an unlucky recipient of said items. It also appears from the report as if Rudy was found in possession of most if not all of the stolen goods. Again, unlikely if he just happened to buy from someone else.

2. The law office window which was broken with a rock was in the middle of the courtyard of the building, most likely surrounded by the windows of other tenants. This is notable for the fact that much has been raised about how unlikely it would have been for Rudy to have climbed into Filomena's room since it was somewhat visible from the roadside. Climbing a wall in the middle of a courtyard seems as much of a risk if not greater. Also, it's been stated before that Raf and Amanda threw the rock from the inside so as to not make audible noise throughout the neighborhood. Yet Rudy threw a large rock into a window in the middle of a courtyard surrounded by other apartments. You can see the law office in google maps, and see that it is in much closer proximity of other homes than the cottage.

3. The law office was in Perugia. Rudy was discovered in Milan with the stolen goods by police. Two days later he is back in Perugia to return the items. Again, more evidence that Rudy didn't just happen to buy the goods while hanging out somewhere. If he had gotten the goods in Perugia maybe. But Rudy apparently happened to buy stolen goods in a city 5 hours away that just happened to come from his hometown? Seems likely from this evidence that Rudy was in Milan to sell the items, but when he was caught by police he was told to return them in Perugia.

4. Glass from the broken window at the law office was found "on" clothes. Isn't this what led the police to think the cottage break-in was staged?
Objects were taken from the law office, glass was found on clothes
and the first-aid box was ransacked


5. Had Rudy not simply been sent back to Perugia to return the stolen goods on October 29th it's even less likely that he would have been involved in the theft and murder at the cottage a few nights later. But more importantly the proximity of his last theft attempt to the night of the murder suggests an urgency to get money and fast. Had he been able to sell the items maybe things would have been okay for another week. But it's safe to say that on October 29th his plan had been shot and he needed a way to make money again. So a desperate attempt at finding money in an acquaintance's home seems not as unlikely anymore.

6. Some have argued that if Rudy broke into the cottage through the window then he would have just gone back out that way. What's interesting is that in the break-in at Cristian Tramontano's house Rudy was caught by the owner and he couldn't get out through the front door so he threatened him with a knife to let him out. This is important because it's been alleged by others here that that's likely what happened to Meredith, the main difference being that Meredith was a young female, hence why it led to rape then murder. But this also suggests that Rudy left Christian's house via a different method than how he entered. He most likely didn't enter through the door, but that's how he left.
 
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5. Had Rudy not simply been sent back to Perugia to return the stolen goods on October 29th it's even less likely that he would have been involved in the theft and murder at the cottage a few nights later. But more importantly the proximity of his last theft attempt to the night of the murder suggests an urgency to get money and fast. Had he been able to sell the items maybe things would have been okay for another week. But it's safe to say that on October 29th his plan had been shot and he needed a way to make money again. So a desperate attempt at finding money in an acquaintance's home seems not as unlikely anymore.

This is an excellent point. If Rudy was broke and desperate at this point, that could go some way to explaining why we went further with this crime than with his previous crimes, and why he hit a target comparatively close to home.

6. Some have argued that if Rudy broke into the cottage through the window then he would have just gone back out that way. What's interesting is that in the break-in at Cristian Tramontano's house Rudy was caught by the owner and he couldn't get out through the front door so he threatened him with a knife to let him out. This is important because it's been alleged by others here that that's likely what happened to Meredith, the main difference being that Meredith was a young female, hence why it led to rape then murder. But this also suggests that Rudy left Christian's house via a different method than how he entered. He most likely didn't enter through the door, but that's how he left.

The argument that Rudy should have left by the window if he entered by the window was never anything but an argument from uninformed incredulity anyway. It's easier to climb up than climb down, and easier to get out of most buildings than to get in to them, so it's not the least bit extraordinary that a housebreaker might climb up to get in through a window and then let themselves out through a door. It's what doors are for.
 
Just to wrap this sucker up, I'm working on a Larsen list for guilters. This is a draft, obviously, and lacking citations of the relevant data, but I'd appreciate comments or suggestions on it. The goal is to highlight all the major points where the guilter story is provably false, on matters which go directly to the matter of whether Amanda and Raffaele are guilty of Meredith's murder. If everything checks out I'll polish it up, add links to the relevant papers, and generally put the finishing touches on it.



A Larsen list for guilters:
  1. How do you explain the fact that all of Meredith's last meal was still in her stomach, and none of it was in her bowel, if she was undisturbed until 10pm and died after 10pm? This is completely inconsistent with everything we know about human digestion. Estimating time of death by stomach contents is imprecise to a degree, but not to anything like the degree needed to explain this.
  2. How do you explain the fact that Meredith's mobile phone pinged a tower in between her house and the final resting place of her phones at 22:13, if she was not murdered until 23:30 or similar? Meredith's phone had never pinged that tower before so while it was physically possible for her phone to reach that tower from her room, it would never actually do so in the normal course of things. This is nigh incontrovertible evidence that at 22:13 the killer had left her house and was en route to the place where they dumped her phones.
  3. How do you explain the fact that the characteristics of Amanda's "confession" (vagueness, doubts about its authenticity, obvious errors of fact, conformity with police theories at the time, later retraction) match with those of an internalised false confession, a well-recognised and objectively documented psychological phenomenon? There is no evidence Amanda knew enough about such false confessions to fake one so convincingly, and indeed if she knew enough to fake one she would almost certainly know that such confessions often lead to the confessor being convicted. If it is highly implausible that she faked an internalised false confession, the only alternative was that this was a real internalised false confession.
  4. Do you acknowledge that since Meredith died long before 23:30, the witnesses who claim to have heard a scream at about that time cannot have been hearing Meredith scream, and that this destroys the claim that these witnesses confirm Amanda's internalised false confession because they heard the scream Amanda described? If not, why not?
  5. If you believe Curatolo's testimony, how do you explain the fact that the computer records provided by the police show that an episode of Naruto was opened on Raffaele's computer at 21:26, which would have lasted for at least twenty minutes, covering the time period when Curatolo very specifically claims to have seen them out of the house?
  6. If you still believe Curatolo's testimony, and cannot present scientific evidence to dispute the time of death based on Meredith's stomach contents, doesn't Curatolo give Amanda and Raffaele an alibi?
  7. If you do not believe Curatolo's highly specific testimony, what alternative do you suggest to the obvious hypothesis that Curatolo was a police stooge who committed perjury, and that his whole statement was false?
  8. Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA on the "double DNA" knife proves absolutely nothing, because it could have been deposited on the handle by completely innocent means after Meredith's death? If not, why not?
  9. Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood found in the house proves absolutely nothing, because it could have been deposited by completely innocent means before Meredith's death? If not, why not?
  10. Do you acknowledge that without this DNA evidence, absolutely no forensic evidence links Amanda to Meredith's murder at all?
  11. What hard evidence do you have that there was a staged break-in given that we have Filomena's statement that there was glass on the floor of her room as well as on top of her clothes? The fact that nothing was stolen from this room is not evidence of a staged break-in, the lack of fingerprints or DNA from Rudy in that room is in no way unusual even if he did search the room without gloves, and the unsupported word of police who did not document their observations is not hard evidence.
  12. Do you acknowledge that the police destroyed the evidence, in the form of Amanda's hard drive and the Spotlight metadata for Stardust on Raffaele's computer, which could potentially have confirmed their alibi, that they were at home at the prosecution's alleged time of death? Do you acknowledge that they have refused the defence's request to have the damaged hard drives repaired by the manufacturer so this evidence can be examined? If not, why not?
  13. Finally, doesn't it ever strike you as weird that Mignini "figured out" that this was a once-in-history three-way sex crime more or less on sight, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that theory? Isn't it just a bit convenient that when absolutely all the forensic evidence failed to confirm his theory, miraculous and unreproducible DNA evidence gathered at the eleventh hour popped up out of Stefanoni's lab to save his theory, but they refuse to show their raw data or their log files? Isn't it cause for concern that the best evidence for the prosecution can't be reproduced and they refuse to show their work, and that the vital pieces of evidence that could have confirmed Amanda and Raffaele's alibis (the hard drives and the Spotlight data for Stardust) were all destroyed by police?
 
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A Larsen list for guilters:

How do you explain the fact that Meredith's mobile phone pinged a tower in between her house and the final resting place of her phones at 22:13, if she was not murdered until 23:30 or similar? Meredith's phone had never pinged that tower before so while it was physically possible for her phone to reach that tower from her room, it would never actually do so in the normal course of things. This is nigh incontrovertible evidence that at 22:13 the killer had left her house and was en route to the place where they dumped her phones.

[/list]

Actually, I have yet to read or have been told by a guilter that anyones phone in that apartment ever pinged that tower other than that 1 instance. Not saying there isn't records of it, but if Amanda's, Laura's, or Filomena's phones had ever pinged that tower we would have heard about it. Some guilter would have said look we have proof its happened before. What about the people in the broke down car. Did their phone ping that tower while they where calling a tow truck? What about a neighbor. How about the guys downstairs. Did the prosecution enter into evidence any of those peoples cell phones ever pinging that tower?
As the prosecutor if he is trying to say a phone pinged a tower that it had never pinged before then the best way to prove that theory is to get records of everyones phone records in the upstairs apartment, downstairs apartment and the broken down vehicle. If the upstairs and downstairs phones have NEVER pinged that tower then what makes the guilters believe it just happened to ping that night. Lets be honest here. If Mignini had any evidence that a phone had EVER picked up that tower from anyone living in that apartment other than that 1 time, it would have been shown in court as proof that phones in that apartment had picked it up before.

Knowing that lets do some math.
Lets say knox/meredith where living together for 6 weeks/ 42 days.
Atleast 8 phones in the 2 apartments.
86400 seconds in a day.
86,400 x 8 x 42 = 29,030,400
1 to 29,030,400 is the ratio that a phone connected to that particular tower.
Now my math could be wrong and one of the other roommates upstairs or downstairs pinged that tower before, but Mignini never mentioned it to the best of my knowledge.
So whats a better chance. The phone pinged the tower at Meredith's house or the partial DNA profile they say is Sollecito matches someone else who was in Perugia at the time of the murder.

I'm no cell phone expert but how often does my phone switch towers? Right now its sitting at my desk.
How many towers is it communicating with?
Does it communicate with multiple towers at once, or does it just switch towers when the signal gets too low?
What would cause my phone to switch towers?
What makes a phone decide which tower it will communicate with?
What would make a phone switch from a tower it normally communicates with to a different tower in the same location that it has never communicated with?
Will my phone switch towers rapidly between the same 2 towers?
What makes a phone decide which tower to use when it has multiple options?

Did the prosecution answer any of those questions in trying to show that Meredith was laying in bed playing with her phone at 2213hrs.
 
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I accept Steve Moore as an expert, however that does not mean I accept everything he has to say. There were many experts at the trial that obviously don't agree on everything either. My main criticism of his articles are his tendency to both overstate and oversimplify his points. I thought his article on the Interrogation was his best. I was very critical of his first few articles but I don't see any value in these personal attacks against him even if you don't happen to agree with him. Is it just too difficult for some people to imagine a man of his background believing in innocence?

It's because of his background that he realizes how bogus this case is.

If you ever want to read a great true-crime book, read Bike Path Rapist by Jeff Schober. The cops got their man - and along the way, they realized the wrong guy was behind bars. They did not quit until he was out, and they did not care who they pissed off.

Most cops are disgusted by thugs like Mignini, who abuse innocent people for the sake of their egos and their pathetic careers. And when they get riled up, they can be loud and persistent. I hear Steve Moore is going to get some national air time tomorrow. That should be good.
 
I'm a layman when it comes to Italian law, but from what I've read it appears that the appeal is granted automatically and in practice it is a complete retrial. Doesn't it make the first instance verdict motivation quite irrelevant?
That would explain the sloppiness and general poor quality of the report.

But again, I'm not an expert.
BTW, don't know if you've seen it but I thought originally that this seemed to be a excellent article on the Italian appeals system from TJMK

On average a criminal trial lasts 426 days in the first trial, and 730 days at the appeal trial, a duration much longer than any other EU country. [...] As mentioned above, the appeal process in Italy is a brand new trial where all evidence and testimony is analyzed in the same terms as the first trial. The standards are however higher.

But then the people on PMF all think that TJMK is propagating false information. So it's all a bit confusing, really...
 
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BTW, don't know if you've seen it but I thought originally that this seemed to be a excellent article on the Italian appeals system from TJMK



But then the people on PMF all think that TJMK is propagating false information. So it's all a bit confusing, really...

I believe this is a measurement from the time when someone is charged to the time the first trial is done and the time from being charged to the time the appeals trial is done. Most of the time here is just the time before the trial and the time in between the trial and the appeal trial.
 
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The argument that Rudy should have left by the window if he entered by the window was never anything but an argument from uninformed incredulity anyway. It's easier to climb up than climb down, and easier to get out of most buildings than to get in to them, so it's not the least bit extraordinary that a housebreaker might climb up to get in through a window and then let themselves out through a door. It's what doors are for.


Unless of course he was suddenly confronted with a locked double deadbolt, and he was in a real hurry.

Oh, wait. That's scenario is just too far-fetched.
 
I believe this is a measurement from the time when someone is charged to the time the first trial is done and the time from being charged to the time the appeals trial is done. Most of the time here is just the time before the trial and the time in between the trial and the appeal trial.
Perhaps, but that article also says: "The Perugia case was therefore faster than average, having lasted less than a year". If he was measuring it from when they were charged (I think end of October '08?) it would've been more than a year. So I'm still not sure...

ETA: It could be that the author of the article misunderstood it, maybe (though isn't he supposed to be a lawyer or something?).
 
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Unless of course he was suddenly confronted with a locked double deadbolt, and he was in a real hurry.

Oh, wait. That's scenario is just too far-fetched.

If you're here for a conversation rather than to snipe and run, can you elaborate on your point and explain what the significance is? I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make with this post.
 
If you're here for a conversation rather than to snipe and run, can you elaborate on your point and explain what the significance is? I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make with this post.

I am not sure but I think after Rudy broke in (through the broken window no less) he may have checked the door and seen how it locked. Or he may have heard Meredith enter and re-lock the door with her keys behind herself. There are many possibilities here but the easiest way out is through the front door and her keys were taken. I agree that it would be easier and less dangerous to climb up rather than climb down through the window.
 
Perhaps, but that article also says: "The Perugia case was therefore faster than average, having lasted less than a year". If he was measuring it from when they were charged (I think end of October '08?) it would've been more than a year. So I'm still not sure...

ETA: It could be that the author of the article misunderstood it, maybe (though isn't he supposed to be a lawyer or something?).

Common sense would tell me that this case probably had more witnesses, experts, and lawyers than the average so it would take longer than average from the start of the actual trial to the finish. So yes, this lawyer may have the right numbers but is likely not interpreting them correctly.

I think Michael at PMF is probably correct in his estimate of just a few days if the court does not allow any new witnesses or testing.
 
It's because of his background that he realizes how bogus this case is.

If you ever want to read a great true-crime book, read Bike Path Rapist by Jeff Schober. The cops got their man - and along the way, they realized the wrong guy was behind bars. They did not quit until he was out, and they did not care who they pissed off.

Most cops are disgusted by thugs like Mignini, who abuse innocent people for the sake of their egos and their pathetic careers. And when they get riled up, they can be loud and persistent. I hear Steve Moore is going to get some national air time tomorrow. That should be good.

The conviction of Lenell Geter for armed robbery is another interesting case of an honest cop figuring out that the wrong man was behind bars.
 
I wonder if quadraginta still believes Rudy's bushy haired stranger with a knife story.

Remember, it was Rudy's story that he met the stranger in the hallway and fell backwards because his pants had fallen down. Now why would rudy be making up a story that he fell on his butt in the hall unless he actually did fall on his butt in the hall and is trying to provide an explanation for why his butt print would be found there.

My theory is that Rudy was sitting on the toilet when Meredith came home and when she had gone back to her room, he grabbed his things, pulled up his pants and tried to quickly sneak out the front door. Finding the front door locked, he would head for a secondary exit which may have been the window he entered through or the door out to the deck.

Meredith upon hearing some noises in the front of the house comes out of her room. Rudy drops his things and rushes into the hall to stop Meredith from calling the police. When he does this, his paints drop to his ankles and Meredith attacks back dropping Rudy on his butt. Rudy scrambles backwards into the kitchen where he is taken down again before Meredith runs back to her room.

Rudy rushes after Meredith into her room where he assaults her and stabs her in the neck then proceeds to try and rape her while she is suffocating on her own blood.


This is just my theory which happens to be consistent with the available evidence. In about 10 years, Rudy will be getting out of prison and you can ask him about his bushy haired stranger theory.
 
Is Amanda Knox perceived as an "anti-semite"?

A widely repeated 'anecdote' concerns an un-named "fellow employee at the World Cup cafe in Seattle" who allegedly related that, after Amanda asked him/her if he/she was jewish, she had "screamed" that "my people killed your people" and then "laughed hysterically" .

As reported, for example, here in the Daily Telegraph, 4th Dec 2009

Very odd. The individual is never named named, or the original source cited - it's just another of those 'memes' which sprouted like mushrooms after her arrest. Anyone know anything more about it?

Then, there this video clip on youtube of Amanda and some friends in Seattle, somewhat inebriated and/or stoned in which someone says " .... you dirty jew!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2m5qSHU88A

I don't know if this video was uploaded before or after the claims of the anonymous "fellow employee" surfaced.

But I have to wonder; did they serve to invoke ire from among a notoriously thin-skinned section of the population who are renowned for never forgiving those they perceive as their enemies?

Otherwise I honestly still can't fathom what it is about AK that earned her the extraordinary and unrelenting ill-will - the hatred - voiced on every blog or forum, month-in, month-out, from people who are apprently determined to keep her in jail regardless of the evidence.
 
Weirdly I just noticed that someone on PMF recently posted a so-called "joke" that read like this:

"What is your favourite 80s band?"
"Gasajoojoo!"

Can't quite find the humour in it myself, but maybe it's just me.
 
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