Danny Jowenko - Manipulated by 9/11 Deniers

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Only a Twoofer could dismiss the statement of a Chief citing actual measurements as "anecdotal ".

Indeed, MM quoted the passage and the words are in there. but he apparently doesn't know what a transit is.

His kind are skilled at shooting themselves in the foot like that.

Oh... and he isn't responding to this either for some sadly predictable and blatantly obvious reason.

No seismic signatures, no blown out windows, no sounds of explosives, no flying debris from the blast waves, no detonators found in debris, no det-cord found in debris, no delay devices found in debris, no copper residue on blast-severed joints, impossibility of demo prep work on actively used building without detection...

None of which occurs if fire brings a building down.

 

[Miragememories]

"You have made the statement about the towers and wtc7 as being "steel and concrete buildings".

Either back it up or retract it."

I have backed up that assertion and you have apparently chosen to ignore my response.

"Until you can prove the non-existence and/or the structural insignificance of the concrete used on every floor in the construction of WTC7, you are misrepresenting the truth."

"you are the one making the claims, the burden of proof is on you. the NIST reports, FEMA and others list wtc7 as a long span steel framed building. There is NO concrete reinforcement... Feel free to look them up."

As I pointed out to you before, the NIST made frequent reference to the relationship of the concrete and steel in WTC7.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.6
"The floor slabs were reinforced concrete of varying thickness."

"on Floors 8 through 47, the concrete was 0.14 m (5.5 in.) thick."

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors1, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the columns."

pg.38
"Temperature-dependent mechanical properties of steel (Appendix E) and concrete (NIST NCSTAR 1-6A) used in the construction of WTC 7."

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little
heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure to the point of
significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

pg.55
"Thus, the details of the progression of horizontal failure and final global collapse were sensitive to the uncertainties in how the building materials (steel, concrete) and building systems and contents interacted, broke up, and disintegrated."
bolding is mine

MM

 

[GlennB]

Gee, MM is getting his arms and legs chopped off left and right, and still continues spitting. What a man!

None shall pass !!

 

[Miragememories]

"Firefighters see massive impact damage to WTC7, they see fires on every floor..."

"Firefighters did not see fires on every floor. That is a straight out lie."

"Strawman. Nobody claims "every floor."

Try reading before you make your next kneejerk reply.

MM

 

[TruthersLie]

I have backed up that assertion and you have apparently chosen to ignore my response.




As I pointed out to you before, the NIST made frequent reference to the relationship of the concrete and steel in WTC7.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.6
"The floor slabs were reinforced concrete of varying thickness."

"on Floors 8 through 47, the concrete was 0.14 m (5.5 in.) thick."

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors1, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the columns."

pg.38
"Temperature-dependent mechanical properties of steel (Appendix E) and concrete (NIST NCSTAR 1-6A) used in the construction of WTC 7."

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little
heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure to the point of
significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

pg.55
"Thus, the details of the progression of horizontal failure and final global collapse were sensitive to the uncertainties in how the building materials (steel, concrete) and building systems and contents interacted, broke up, and disintegrated."
bolding is mine

MM

As with the SCHOOLING I gave you on the LIE about the "footprint" in architectural and engineering terms a concrete and steel building is a buidling in which the steel is REINFORCED with concrete. Usually in the support areas such as the core.

When you say it was a steel and concrete building, you are LYING about the type of building it was. All of your references are dealing with the concrete laid for the FLOORS which provided NO (or very little) structural support and was just used for the static loading of the floors.

Do some basic *********** research and stop LYING about the type of construction. I have given you over 5 links which state the type of building which is a STEEL FRAMED buidling with concrete used for flooring. It is a VAST difference and it is a LIE (like your "footprint" ********.)

 

[Miragememories]

"Firefighters see massive impact damage to WTC7, they see fires on every floor..."

"Firefighters did not see fires on every floor. That is a straight out lie."

"Strawman. Nobody claims "every floor."

"Firefighters see massive impact damage to WTC7, Oh dear... you are not going to enjoy reading this:"

I don't need to read it.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote.

What I said was;"Firefighters did not see fires on every floor."

You cannot see what is not there even if you think, or assume you do.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.xxxvi
"The fires were ignited on at least 10 floors; however, only the fires on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 grew and lasted until the time of the building collapse."

pg.xxxvii
"There were two sources of water (gravity fed overhead tanks and the city water main) for the standpipe and automatic sprinkler systems serving Floor 21 and above, and some of the early fires on those upper floors might have actually been controlled in this
manner."

pg.18
"Even though available images showing fires in WTC 7 did not allow the detailed description of fire spread that was possible for the WTC towers, there was sufficient information to derive general descriptions of fire ignition and spread on various floors of the building (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 5)."

pg.19
"Between roughly 2:00 p.m. and the collapse of WTC 7 at 5:20:52 p.m., fires were observed spreading on the 7th floor through the 13th floor, with the exception of the 10th floor."

pg.21
"A fire was seen briefly on the north face of the 14 floor, about halfway between the midpoint and the northeast corner, at 5:03 p.m. No fire was evident in images taken a few minutes before and a few minutes after this time."

pg.29
"The visual evidence indicated that the only fires of significant duration and intensity were on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13.

By 1:00 p.m., there was no visual evidence that the small, early fires on Floors 19, 22, 29, and 30 were still burning (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 5). Therefore, these fires were not included in the four-step analysis sequence.

There was no confirmed evidence of fires on other floors of WTC 7. The layout of the other tenant spaces (Floors 15 and above) indicated that, had there been fires of the duration and intensity of those on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13, they would have been recorded in at least some of the photographic images or videos.

There were no signs of fires on the 5th and 6th mechanical floors. There was little combustible material on the 6th floor, making a sustained and intense fire unlikely.

...Hypothetically, there might have been fires on the 5 floor..."

pg.51
"Early fires were seen on the southwest corner of Floors 19, 22, 29, and 30 shortly after
noon. These were short-lived"

pg.51
"Sustained fires occurred on Floors 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13."

pg.xv
" NIST complemented in-house expertise with private sector technical experts; accumulated copious documents, photographs, and videos of the disaster; conducted first-person interviews of building occupants and emergency responders; analyzed the evacuation and emergency response operations in and around WTC 7; performed computer simulations of the behavior of WTC 7 on September 11, 2001; and combined the knowledge gained into a probable collapse sequence."

In spite of your dramatic quote collection;

After years of investigation, the NIST found; no evidence that WTC7 was coming down early, there was not fire on every floor, WTC7 was never completely involved in fire, WTC7 was never fully engulfed, the whole south side of WTC7 had not been completely hit by the collapse of WTC1, that WTC7 never had fire at all, or most of its windows, WTC7 was never burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved, WTC7 never had fires on nearly all floors, and WTC7 was never fully involved in flames.!!!

"WTC7 was leaning.

"You see the way it's leaning like this? It's definately coming down. There's no way to stop it! The structural integrity isn't there."

That's gotta suck for you to hear stuff like that from the firefighters who lost 343 of their own that day.

Now the only way out of this for you is to ignore this and pretend it was never posted or claim the firefighters were in on it and helped kill their own brothers, fathers, and sons."

One firefighter's uncorroborated opinion given as partial explanation for the WTC7 stand down.

You can add it to your list of firefighter quotes regarding the "fully engulfed by fire" WTC7, which the NIST could not find any corroboration.

It must suck to be so wrong.

MM

 

[uke2se]

MM, could you provide an example of another CD that causes FFA?

 

[Miragememories]

"I have backed up that assertion and you have apparently chosen to ignore my response.

Until you can prove the non-existence and/or the structural insignificance of the concrete used on every floor in the construction of WTC7, you are misrepresenting the truth."

"you are the one making the claims, the burden of proof is on you. the NIST reports, FEMA and others list wtc7 as a long span steel framed building. There is NO concrete reinforcement... Feel free to look them up."

As I pointed out to you before, the NIST made frequent reference to the relationship of the concrete and steel in WTC7.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.6
"The floor slabs were reinforced concrete of varying thickness."

"on Floors 8 through 47, the concrete was 0.14 m (5.5 in.) thick."

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors1, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the columns."

pg.38
"Temperature-dependent mechanical properties of steel (Appendix E) and concrete (NIST NCSTAR 1-6A) used in the construction of WTC 7."

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little
heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure to the point of significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

pg.55
"Thus, the details of the progression of horizontal failure and final global collapse were sensitive to the uncertainties in how the building materials (steel, concrete) and building systems and contents interacted, broke up, and disintegrated."
bolding is mine

"When you say it was a steel and concrete building, you are LYING about the type of building it was."

"steel and concrete structure" [WTC7].

structure: a building

The NIST declared to the public that WTC7 was indeed a steel and concrete building.

I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself and send your idiotic complaint to the NIST. Apparently they are supposed to know a few things about building architecture.

MM

 

[Mikemcc]

As I pointed out to you before, the NIST made frequent reference to the relationship of the concrete and steel in WTC7.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.6
"The floor slabs were reinforced concrete of varying thickness."

"on Floors 8 through 47, the concrete was 0.14 m (5.5 in.) thick."

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors1, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the columns."

pg.38
"Temperature-dependent mechanical properties of steel (Appendix E) and concrete (NIST NCSTAR 1-6A) used in the construction of WTC 7."

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little
heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure to the point of significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

pg.55
"Thus, the details of the progression of horizontal failure and final global collapse were sensitive to the uncertainties in how the building materials (steel, concrete) and building systems and contents interacted, broke up, and disintegrated."
bolding is mine




structure: a building

The NIST declared to the public that WTC7 was indeed a steel and concrete building.

I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself and send your idiotic complaint to the NIST. Apparently they are supposed to know a few things about building architecture.

MM

Concrete decking is not the same as concrete reinforced.

The perennial example used by both sides in the arguement is the Windsor building in Madrid. The plain steel structure failed in the fire there, whilst the concrete encased steel structure (the core and the structure below the fire deck) survived.

It is not valid to say that WTC7 was a concrete reinforced (or encased) structure. It was a long span steel structure with concrete elements (primarily the decking). In particular the structure over the electrical substation was a particular source of weakness in the scenario that played out.

 

[BigAl]

I don't need to read it.

You obviously didn't read what I wrote.

What I said was;"Firefighters did not see fires on every floor."

Strawman, So what? There was enough fire for long enough to cause the structure to fail.

You cannot see what is not there even if you think, or assume you do.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.xxxvi
"The fires were ignited on at least 10 floors; however, only the fires on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 grew and lasted until the time of the building collapse."

So what? Nothing here says that the collapse was caused by anything but unfought fire.

pg.xxxvii
"There were two sources of water (gravity fed overhead tanks and the city water main) for the standpipe and automatic sprinkler systems serving Floor 21 and above, and some of the early fires on those upper floors might have actually been controlled in this
manner."

So what? Nothing here says that the collapse was caused by anything but unfought fire.

pg.18
"Even though available images showing fires in WTC 7 did not allow the detailed description of fire spread that was possible for the WTC towers, there was sufficient information to derive general descriptions of fire ignition and spread on various floors of the building (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 5)."

pg.19
"Between roughly 2:00 p.m. and the collapse of WTC 7 at 5:20:52 p.m., fires were observed spreading on the 7th floor through the 13th floor, with the exception of the 10th floor."

pg.21
"A fire was seen briefly on the north face of the 14 floor, about halfway between the midpoint and the northeast corner, at 5:03 p.m. No fire was evident in images taken a few minutes before and a few minutes after this time."

pg.29
"The visual evidence indicated that the only fires of significant duration and intensity were on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13.

By 1:00 p.m., there was no visual evidence that the small, early fires on Floors 19, 22, 29, and 30 were still burning (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 5). Therefore, these fires were not included in the four-step analysis sequence.

There was no confirmed evidence of fires on other floors of WTC 7. The layout of the other tenant spaces (Floors 15 and above) indicated that, had there been fires of the duration and intensity of those on Floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13, they would have been recorded in at least some of the photographic images or videos.

There were no signs of fires on the 5th and 6th mechanical floors. There was little combustible material on the 6th floor, making a sustained and intense fire unlikely.

...Hypothetically, there might have been fires on the 5 floor..."

pg.51
"Early fires were seen on the southwest corner of Floors 19, 22, 29, and 30 shortly after
noon. These were short-lived"

pg.51
"Sustained fires occurred on Floors 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13."

So what? Nothing here says that the collapse was caused by anything but unfought fire.

pg.xv
" NIST complemented in-house expertise with private sector technical experts; accumulated copious documents, photographs, and videos of the disaster; conducted first-person interviews of building occupants and emergency responders; analyzed the evacuation and emergency response operations in and around WTC 7; performed computer simulations of the behavior of WTC 7 on September 11, 2001; and combined the knowledge gained into a probable collapse sequence."

In spite of your dramatic quote collection;

After years of investigation, the NIST found; no evidence that WTC7 was coming down early, there was not fire on every floor, WTC7 was never completely involved in fire, WTC7 was never fully engulfed, the whole south side of WTC7 had not been completely hit by the collapse of WTC1, that WTC7 never had fire at all, or most of its windows, WTC7 was never burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved, WTC7 never had fires on nearly all floors, and WTC7 was never fully involved in flames.!!!


T

Correct. There was enough fire for long enough to cause the structure to fail.

One firefighter's uncorroborated opinion given as partial explanation for the WTC7 stand down.

Only a Twoofer could dismiss a quote a Chief who, after measuring the bulge with instruments as expressing "an opinion" , especially when the Chief's informed, professional conclusion came to pass three hours later.

You can add it to your list of firefighter quotes regarding the "fully engulfed by fire" WTC7, which the NIST could not find any corroboration.
MM

Only a Twoofer could read all those quotes and the documents they came from and conclude that the root cause of the WTC7 collapse was anything but unfought fire.

 

[TruthersLie]

As I pointed out to you before, the NIST made frequent reference to the relationship of the concrete and steel in WTC7.

<facepalm>

Like with the schooling about the "footprint" here we go.

Extracts from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.6
"The floor slabs were reinforced concrete of varying thickness."

"on Floors 8 through 47, the concrete was 0.14 m (5.5 in.) thick."

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors1, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the

 

[Bell]

MM, could you provide an example of another CD that causes FFA?

Quoted. Just in case Uke2se is on MM's ignore list.

Although I think MM is rather ignoring difficult questions instead.

 

[Miragememories]

Like with the schooling about the "footprint" here we go.

If anyone is in need english of lessons it is you.

"When you say it was a steel and concrete building, you are LYING about the type of building it was."

"steel and concrete structure" [WTC7].

structure: a building

The NIST declared to the public that WTC7 was indeed a steel and concrete building.

As I said in my last reply, "I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself and send your idiotic complaint to the NIST. Apparently they are supposed to know a few things about building architecture."

And if you persist in playing dumb, my ignore list can be expanded ad nauseum, but it won't stop me from posting for the visitors.

It is great using ignore and watching all the bs posts suddenly disappear.

If you feel I fit into that category, than please, by all means, put me on ignore.

MM

 

[BigAl]

If anyone need english lessons it is you.




structure: a building

The NIST declared to the public that WTC7 was indeed a steel and concrete building.

Citation, please.

 

[Chuck Guiteau]

No seismic signatures, no blown out windows, no sounds of explosives, no flying debris from the blast waves, no detonators found in debris, no det-cord found in debris, no delay devices found in debris, no copper residue on blast-severed joints, impossibility of demo prep work on actively used building without detection...

None of which occurs if fire brings a building down.

C'mon MM, this strikes at the very heart of your "theory". You can quibble, parse, and rely on cherry picked quotes all you want, but this is so elemental to your case it MUST be explained.
Why was there no physical evidence of explosives or rigging found, even though there were hundreds of highly trained investigators, hundreds more construction workers who would be familiar with such, and even bomb sniffing dogs on site for a prolonged period of time, and not one found so much as an inch long piece of shock tube.
And why haven't you (or any other CT'er) been able to provide a technically viable manner for effecting a CD that is even remotely consistent with known facts?

 

[Miragememories]

Citation, please.

Extract from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure [WTC7] to the point of significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

MM

 

[Disbelief]

post 1119
And as noted in their final report, the NIST, finally conceded that WTC7 underwent a complete freefall for at least 8 storys.

That is something that has never occurred before in a concrete and steel building, yet is a planned for characteristic in controlled demolitions.

Do you ever plan on backing up this claim?

 

[BigAl]

Extract from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little heat, to raise the temperatures of the steel and concrete structure [WTC7] to the point of significant loss of strength or stiffness..."
MM

That paragraph (continued from page 51) talks about concrete as part of the thermal mass. It in no way claims that rhe concrete is structural for the sake of understanding how unfought fire caused WTC7 to collapse.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR 1A.pdf​

 

[Miragememories]

That paragraph (continued from page 51) talks about concrete as part of the thermal mass. It in no way claims that rhe concrete is structural for the sake of understanding how unfought fire caused WTC7 to collapse.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR 1A.pdf​

Nice try Al but no cigar.

Extract from the NIST Final Report on the Collapse of WTC7;

pg.52
"...power to the fuel pumps, (b) could not be sustained long enough, or generated too little heat, to raise the temperatures of the
steel and concrete structure [WTC7] to the point of significant loss of strength or stiffness..."

Regardless of what the context of the statement was, the NIST clearly made reference to WTC7 as a "steel and concrete structure".

In addition, they make other references to WTC7's concrete that clearly reveal a structural relationship.

pg.7
" The floor beams were connected to the concrete deck by shear studs, which caused the floor beams and concrete slab to act together, or compositely. This type of floor system is thus referred to as a composite floor. The floor beams were framed into (connected to) girders with a variety of types of shear connectors, through which the floor beams transferred gravity loads from the floors to the girders. The girders also framed into the columns with a variety of types of shear connectors and transferred the gravity loads to the columns."

pg.55
"Thus, the details of the progression of horizontal failure and final global collapse were sensitive to the uncertainties in how the building materials (steel, concrete) and building systems and contents interacted, broke up, and disintegrated."

MM

 

[carlitos]

Do you guys think that arguing with this particular brick wall is helpful in any way?