Charles Norrie's Lockerbie theory

If Bedford was working to an SOP which required him to find and use AVE4041 specifically, and no other container, why did he come out with the stuff about birth-dates rather than simply saying that was the number of the container he had to select?

Quite simple. Lots of people remember things in such ways. I remember the passphrase on my iphone because it's Shakespeare's year of death.


I think that's exactly what I was saying from the start. You have precisely NO evidence that he was required to go and look for AVE4041 as opposed to using the appropriate-sized container which first came to hand when he needed it.

Why do you now introduce AVN7511? McKee's suitcase wasn't in 7511, which originated from the baggage build-up hall and contained luggage from the Heathrow check-in desks. If you're changing your story to suggest that the "Iranian gent" didn't go anywhere near the interline shed but in fact went to the baggage build-up shed to sabotage 7511, then you have to realise that's a huge alteration in your proposed scenario.

Why don't you look at the damage diagrams in the AAIB report. I haven't got to the bottom of them yet and it's problematic when I do, but I still trying to learn, rather than criticising uselessly.


Yes, I know that 7511 was next to 4041 in the plane and also damaged by the explosion. I also know it was loaded in the baggage build-up shed with suitcases from the Heathrow check-in desks. Any suggestion that this was the container that was sabotaged rather than 4041, completely knocks your entire theory about McKee's suitcase (from Larnaca) and the alleged transponder right out of court.

I already told you, I'm not going on Easter-egg hunts through lengthy documents. If you have a point to make regarding the AAIB report, make it. I hope it's better than the one where you interpret the statement that there was only one bomb to imply that the inspectors knew there were two but were cleverly hiding this knowledge behind particular wording.

What's wrong with good civil service wording. I'm quite practised at it myself.

I rather expect my critics to spend a little time reading and thinking about stuff rather than arguing from a position of incredulity.


Then please stop asserting stuff that is blatantly incredible on first principles.

A pound of Semtex can produce quite a bang, anyone watching the footage of the Wyatt tests can see that. Why don't you ask Jim Swire though? He was an army explosives operative when he did his National Service, before he went to medical school.

What's this about. Nobody is denying Pan Am 103 was destroyed at least in part by a Semtex explosive. And a little bit of knowledge gained in National Service, does not really count as expertise.


You seemed to be suggesting that people were describing a bigger explosion than could be accounted for by a pound of Semtex. I was merely commenting that a pound of Semtex looks quite spectacular.

And Robbie the Pict has an eyewitness who claims to have seen the intact plane crossing the A74 from west to east at only 500 feet before crash-landing on Lockerbie. Eyewitness testimony is frequently mistaken.

And Robbie the Pict has an eyewitness who claims to have seen the intact plane crossing the A74 from west to east at only 500 feet before crash-landing on Lockerbie. Eyewitness testimony is frequently mistaken.

Robbie the Pict is frequently mistaken. I do not regard him as a reliable analyst.


But we're talking about eye-witnesses. You seem to be prepared to believe one eye-witness because that story seems to fit your theory, but dismiss other eye-witnesses who say something different.

Oh dear, I'm sorry you're being suppressed. But here you are, discussing it freely on an open forum, and your article is still where you put it, unsabotaged, as far as I can see. Please explain why what was 14 seconds apart from what?

But the fact it is being suppressed in the interesting thing. Why?


Don't flatter yourself.

You're heading for trouble here too at the moment, but when trouble comes it will be because you're refusing to follow moderator instructions about using the quote tags, not because anyone wants to suppress you. Just as any trouble you're encountering at Wikipedia is bcause you're violating their site policies.

Oh Rolfe, you've got to do something for yourself. I'm looking at Fig B-4 od the AAIB report right now and it shows two debris trails, 2.4cm apart, which I think is a scaled 3.1km. At 800 kph, though the plane is slowing it would have taken 14 seconds between the appearance of the two trails.

Two trails, two explosions.

The norhern one is shorter and more densely populated (from the text in the report) than the southern one. Hence it was bigger and lower.


Two trails, two "halves" of the aircraft, heading in different directions.

Essentially hthe diagrams come from radar plots and the radr is cycling at 11 second intervals.

So 1st explosion happens. At 19:02:53 or 4 it is illumiated by the radar and Topp cries out. My Cia man pushes the trigger on the package bomb and seven seconds later (pager connection timer) the package bomb is detonated.

The CIA man has of course got a radar set and seen the first explosion because (a) its only on primary radar not secondary and (b) Topp sees 5 blobs (actually 4).

Then we get the second pass at 19:03:04 or thereabouts, followed by the report of crash and fire on the ground and the seismic report, calculated by AAIB later.

Please you've got to come up with an answer to why to debris trails. Hand waving just won't do. And I can bear a lazy investigator


I'll let Realdon deal with the radar and the remote-control explosion. This should be fun!

Rolfe.
 
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You're heading for trouble here too at the moment, but when trouble comes it will be because you're refusing to follow moderator instructions about using the quote tags, not because anyone wants to suppress you. Just as any trouble you're encountering at Wikipedia is bcause you're violating their site policies.


Oh dear, it's happened. And I suppose he'll declare that he's being "suppressed" here now too.

I want my cat-toy back! It's the Pakistani homoeopaths all over again!

Rolfe.
 
Charles,

As I said in my post #2, this CT is new to me. Until I happened to read your OP and blog article, I had no idea that the U.S. was being implicated in any sort of shenanigans regarding the bombing of PA103.

I asked, albeit indirectly, in post #2 that you show me some support for your assertions. I later pointed out in my post #10 that your blog seems to be chock full of beliefs and assumptions and lacks facts and evidence. If you want to sell me that this CT has any base in reality, I hoped that you would provide me with some level of verification.

After all, the burden of proof always lies with the accuser. Not the other way around.

Instead, you regress into the old CT form of debate by using insults, circular reasoning, fantasy, and baseless assumptions to push some hidden agenda. I honestly had anticipated that you would debate me openly about this. After all, like I said, this group of accusations is completely new to me. Who better to attempt a factual discussion about a possible CT than someone who has limited knowledge of the subject?

As it stands, to put it bluntly, I think your accusation is nothing but diaper filling. Your claims are full of the usual CT garbage…planted evidence, secret deals, government plots, hidden agendas…all without any shred of proof that these allegations are anything more than a figment of your imagination.

So, by and large, your blog and post failed. I’m not the least bit convinced of any plot involving the U.S., Iran, or the Easter Bunny to allow the destruction of PA103 and the hundreds of innocent lives in the air and on the ground. Your attempt to prove this CT never even got off the ground.
 
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While Charles is on the naughty step, I'll just explain why I'm interested in any further primary sources he has regarding the loading of the Heathrow interline luggage and the Frankfurt online transfer.

The Bedford suitcase appeared in the container before the Frankfurt feeder flight landed, among the interline luggage transferring to PA103 from earlier flights landing at Heathrow. If it's accepted that he didn't hallucinate the entire thing, and the judges certainly accepted that, then either it was a suitcase introduced by nefarious means, or it was genuinely one of the interline transfer bags. The judges went for the latter, but for no particularly good reason, as its owner was never identified and no suitcase which appeared to match that sighting was recovered at Lockerbie.

The positioning of the explosion in AVE4041 certainly appears to absolve the Heathrow check-in security, as no Heathrow check-in luggage was in that container. However, it doesn't exclusively implicate the Frankfurt luggage either, because of these interline bags already in the container. Just as the Official Verson later decided the suitcase had arrived at Frankfurt on an interline flight from Malta, it's perfectly possible it could have arrived at Heathrow from one of the direct interline flights, and have been any one of the ten or so such cases said to have been in that container.

There's approximately zip information available about this possibility though. I can't find any primary source that says anything about these passengers or their luggage, and how this possibility was eliminated.

What is available from secondary sources is that there weren't many such passengers - some say about thirteen. That's still a bit odd for only ten suitcases though. Which is why I'd like Charles to expand on his "first-class luggage" claim, but then I don't see 13 passengers generating as many as ten first-class suitcases.

Then again we know who some of them were. Bernt Carlsson, the UN envoy. The US officials - McKee, Gannon, O'Connor, La Riviere and possibly others. Some or all of them were CIA. Gannon's suitcase (IIRC) was however left behind and found in a Heathrow baggage store after the disaster.

I think, principally, that the Bedford suitcase (the one on the left) was the bomb suitcase. I also think it was placed there directly by one of the terrorists (possibly Abu Elias himself) while Bedford was on his break. I think the right-hand suitcase, which might have been a matching pair to the first, was a place-holder, to try as far as possible to ensure the bomb suitcase stayed on the hull side of the container. (If the forensic conclusions are to be believed this didn't entirely work as planned and the case was moved by the loaders when the Frankfurt luggage was being added, but in the event this didn't matter because all that happened was that Karen Noonan's red Tourister suitcase was slipped under it, and it wasn't moved inboard.)

I'm rather interested in Gannon's lost suitcase though. Was this some sort of a bag-switch operation? Was the tag taken from Gannon's case to be used on the bomb bag? Is there any significance to the fact that this is the suitcase of a CIA operative? Though now I look at the small wikipedia page on Gannon, I note an implication that his belongings were found at Lockerbie - though this might just have been a carry-on bag.

I'd also like to know more about all the Heathrow interline passengers. We know all passengers who travelled on the Malta-Frankfurt flight were followed up to the point of harrassment, investigating them for terrorist connections, and nothing was found. Surely the Heathrow interline passengers should have been similarly investigated? We don't even know for sure that they all caught the flight, though I think they did. I think they all died, but could one of them have been an unwitting mule?

I questioned whether the ten or so bags we know about in AVE 4041 were all the interline luggage there was, partly because I wanted to know if we could be sure the CIA officers' luggage was among them. I was persuaded that it was, because where else would these cases have gone? If there's any primary-source evidence that these cases were only the first-class interline luggage, and the second-class went in a different container, that would be quite interesting as regards following this up.

There's a great deal of primary-source evidence available in this case, so much that one person can't reasonably assimilate it all. So when someone makes a claim like this, it's useful to enquire where they got it from, as it might be relevant and important. I have a sinking feeling Charles has just got the wrong end of the stick though.

Rolfe.
 
I’m not the least bit convinced of any plot involving [....] Iran [....] to allow the destruction of PA103 and the hundreds of innocent lives in the air and on the ground.


Oh, I think there's a much better case to be made on that front. Just not Charles's case.

Rolfe.
 
Oh, I think there's a much better case to be made on that front. Just not Charles's case.

Rolfe.

I suppose I could buy into a theory that Iran had something to do with it...after all they were pissed about IR655.

My personal CT speculation would be that Iran paid off Libya/Megrahi to make something happen.

Again, I want to throw in a disclaimer...I'm not pushing this theory because I just made it up and have never even bothered to research or even seriously believe it...nor do I have any intention to do so. All I'm implying is that it could be viewed as a valid possibility.

But this nonsense about the CIA teaming up with Iran to allow a symbollic act of revenge for IR655 by blowing up PA103...and then frame Libya for it...and get GHWB in the White House? That is just a bad fictional movie-plot. And my guess is that James Bond would have stopped it all from happening anyway. ;)
 
I suppose I could buy into a theory that Iran had something to do with it... after all they were pissed [off?] about IR655.


I think that remains the most probable explanation, certainly. There's quite a lot of circumstantial evidence to support it.

My personal CT speculation would be that Iran paid off Libya/Megrahi to make something happen.


The first part of that couldn't be refuted, certainly, because it's not known exactly who got the bomb on the plane. Several commentators have supported the suggestion. However, there's actually little to no evidence that Libya had any direct hand in it (though they might have supplied munitions, as they did to a lot of terrorist groups such as the IRA).

The second part, no. There's overwhelming evidence that the bomb didn't travel on the alleged Malta-Frankfurt-London route, and thus that Megrahi had nothing at all to do with it. There's overwhelming evidence that the CIA and the US Department of Justice (enthusiastically supported by the Scottish Crown Prosecution Service and the Lord Advocate) conspired to fit Megrahi up for the crime.

There's good evidence to suggest that this wasn't just a standard "let's fit this guy up because we can, and we can't pin it on anyone else" exercise, but rather the end-point of a deliberate conspiracy to divert the investigation away from the PFLP-GC/Iran theory, for reasons that aren't entirely clear but some of which can be guessed at.

There's pretty strong evidence that at least two items of physical evidence were actually planted. However, it's important to realise that this being the case isn't in any way necessary for the case against Megrahi to be shown to be complete smoke and mirrors. He still didn't do it even if all the physical evidence is completely kosher.

Again, I want to throw in a disclaimer... I'm not pushing this theory because I just made it up and have never even bothered to research or even seriously believe it... nor do I have any intention to do so. All I'm implying is that it could be viewed as a valid possibility.


I don't want to derail this thread beyond redemption before Charles comes back - apart from anything else, I started it to prevent him derailing one of the other Lockerbie threads with his mad theory! However, we do have quite a few other threads about the incident if you want to discuss the wider issue.

But this nonsense about the CIA teaming up with Iran to allow a symbollic act of revenge for IR655 by blowing up PA103... and then frame Libya for it... and get GHWB in the White House? That is just a bad fictional movie-plot. And my guess is that James Bond would have stopped it all from happening anyway. ;)


Mmmm, quite! I have a bit of a feeling the CIA was mixed up in it somehow, but not like that. I suspect the atrocity was in some way hooked into a covert CIA operation, possibly something similar to or related to Oliver North's little games, and/or an operation actually attempting to prevent Iran from downing an airliner. Then when it all went horribly, inconceivably wrong, and the terrorists got through the covert operation and the plane blew apart, and the investigators showed signs of turning up stuff that would be seriously embarrassing, a cover-up and misdirection operation was mounted. The indictment of Megrahi was the end result of that.

I've never seen any credible evidence suggesting a LIHOP or MIHOP operation.

Rolfe.
 
Might I say this thread is going quite well. Not so much for Charles' theory, but for exploring the issue in general. So thank you, Charles and Rolfe.

Thanks to Realdon popping in. I couldn't have said how much sense his scenario for triggering the second bomb really was. So far I've been interested in the reasoning why he suspects a CIA plot to help kill the plane, and the physical clues he says supports it. This was a "brisant explosion" removing A patch of metal from the rear of the plane. He refers to an AAIB graphic showing a patch painted white (missing/never recovered) where the bomb was. I'm not sure which of these seven or so apparent explosions all over the plane is the one he means. Charles, any help?
AAIB_Reconst_colorcode.jpg


For my part, I take the following points:
1 - from Rolfe and Charles, Bedford's possible birthdate-triggered memory of the container number might mean nothing. In fact I catch myself memorizing pointless numbers quite often.

Charles needs some education on the Bedford story. If he were prompted to recall this bag (something I wondered about myself once), why? Almost instantly, at the same time, they started ignoring all clues pointing to Heathrow, while finding the bomb was in a brown hardshell case like Samsonite make. So the biggest clue - such a case was seen in the relevant container originating at Heathrow (or at least not from PA103A). You suggest investigators led him to state, and a lot else suggest the first thing they did with it is rule it a coincidence and explain it away. A whole other case of the same description came in off the 103A and wound up in almost the same spot, it's reasoned. The one Bedford saw, the coincidence one, was just never found. I believe it's the only case that didn't turn up.

For reference, several posts on the issue
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/01/bedford-suitcases.html

As for Bedford's memory fading by 2000, rather you can just about see it being broken all at once in 1990:
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/01/bedford-on-color-of-that-brown.html
Q And as far as the colour of that particular case is concerned, have you always expressed the same view as to what the colour was?
A To my knowledge, I have.
Q Isn't it fair to say that on different occasions you thought it was brown or maroon, and at one point you were quite certain it was maroon?
A Yes.
Q Again this is no criticism of you, but I am anxious to know what the state of your evidence is about colour. In view of the different expressions of view over the period, are you able to be clear at all as to what the colour of that case was?
A No.
Q With regard to the suitcase that you saw lying down flat to the left side of the container, I would like you to think back as best you can. Could that suitcase have been a blue suitcase with a maroon or brown trim?
A I couldn't say.
I admit that last is a little imaginative, but co-considering the relevance of his story and the way the FAI (people?) treated it, it's interesting. Before, he remembered one color - brown/maroony brown - and told the FAI just that, just minutes earlier. Next he's suddenly "admitting" he's alternately called it brown OR maroon, and at the end so completely unsure of the color that it might have been blue.

(as a side note, RARDE had decided the case beneath the bomb bag was a blue American Tourister case, but it came from Frankfurt on the 103A)
 
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The one Bedford saw, the coincidence one, was just never found. I believe it's the only case that didn't turn up.


I don't think that's correct - the court judgement says that some cases were never recovered. I imagine some might have gone into the fireball at Sherwood Crescent, and maybe one or two into the Winterhope reservoir? I don't know if they dragged it or not.

This was part of the justification for hand-waving away the Bedford evidence. However, it's striking how little is said about the investigation and categorisation of the suitcases recovered, and the matching of them to the passengers. Everything possible was eventually returned to the relatives of course, with armies of Lockerbie women washing and ironing stained clothes so as to return them in good condition. However, surely each case that was found was catalogued and photographed for the purpose of elimination? But I've never heard anything about the results of this exercise.

(as a side note, RARDE had decided the case beneath the bomb bag was a blue American Tourister case, but it came from Frankfurt on the 103A)


Red American Tourister, I believe, belonging to Karen Noonan.

Rolfe.
 
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Charles needs some education on the Bedford story. If he were prompted to recall this bag (something I wondered about myself once), why? Almost instantly, at the same time, they started ignoring all clues pointing to Heathrow, while finding the bomb was in a brown hardshell case like Samsonite make. So the biggest clue - such a case was seen in the relevant container originating at Heathrow (or at least not from PA103A). You suggest investigators led him to state, and a lot else suggest the first thing they did with it is rule it a coincidence and explain it away.


Actually, it's even dafter than this. (Charles's story, I mean.)

He's saying that John Bedford's description of the maroon/brown Samsonite can be dismissed because (a) Bedford went home early that day on the suggestion of his supervisor, and (b) because the police who interviewed him a fortnight later were able to plant the entire story in his head as a false memory.

His reason for alleging that last is that originally the conspiracy was going to involve the PFLP-GC inserting the bomb at Heathrow. (For some reason using the interline shed instead of the build-up shed.) But later, it was decided this was politically inconvenient and it was changed to Megrahi at Luqa, except they were stuck with Bedford's false memory.

You rightly point out that in fact the united front that it wasn't a Heathrow introduction was in place from the first week or two of the investigation, so this is very strange behaviour. But it's madder than that, as I said.

Charles's explanation for the Maltese clothes is that they were bought by the CIA just as Gauci described, with the firm intention that he should remember the transaction. The purpose of this was of course to support the fabricated story of the Maltese origin of the bomb.

Now wait a minute. The clothes were bought with the intention of planting them (suitably shredded) on the ground at Lockerbie, to show that the bomb had come from Malta. The purchase was made in late November 1988.

Then on 4th January 1989 the police deliberately planted a false memory in Bedford's mind, that the bomb suitcase was introduced at Heathrow. All the while denying that the bomb had been introduced at Heathrow. Then later, it was politically convenient to change that plan to allege a Malta origin - wasn't it awfully convenient that these clothes where bought way back in 1988, and planted on the ground immediately after the bombing, so that later, when it was decided not to go with the Heathrow idea after all, it was all there....

:jaw-dropp

Charles needs to think his ideas through a lot better than that.

Rolfe.
 
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I don't think that's correct - the court judgement says that some cases were never recovered. I imagine some might have gone into the fireball at Sherwood Crescent, and maybe one or two into the Winterhope reservoir? I don't know if they dragged it or not.

Perhaps earlier, into an engine or even the North Sea. Point taken - Bedford's bag was among the few never recovered. Unless it was the one partially recovered in several pieces...

Red American Tourister, I believe, belonging to Karen Noonan.

Rolfe

Correct owner, but it awas motly blue. (had some red and black parts as well). But the blue foam outer skin of it played into the re-branding of PI/911:
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2010/05/monster-of-newcastleton-forest.html

This was a 12" square, ginormous chunk of brown hardshell Samsonite case. Presumed from the bomb bag, a fully square foot remanant. ?? Dr. Hayes at RARDE didn't think so and first called in the underside of a case beneath the bomb bag, that was resting directly on the container floor. Just where Bedford had reported the left-hand case among the two he saw arranged thusly (big brown ones across the bottom, both flat on the floor, exact model and size guessed).

Later when Feraday looked at it, he found blue foam plastics strongly adhering to this bottom side, suggesting it was resting on Noonan's bag, which had come from Frankfurt. Why did Hayes miss blue foam on maroony-brown and conclude it was against the metal? Another mystery.

Anyway...

Then on 4th January 1989 the police deliberately planted a false memory in Bedford's mind, that the bomb suitcase was introduced at Heathrow. All the while denying that the bomb had been introduced at Heathrow. Then later, it was politically convenient to change that plan to allege a Malta origin - wasn't it awfully convenient that these clothes where bought way back in 1988, and planted on the ground immediately after the bombing, so that later, when it was decided not to go with the Heathrow idea after all, it was all there....

You're right, and good catch. Without even leaving his own forwarded points, this explanation would create an almost paradoxical situation of cross-cutting cover-ups. And the whole idea that would have one even entertain it is based on limited access to facts, sporadic dismissal of relevant points as probably fake, points that have been routed here is a matter of hours...

Charles, what do you think? What are we missing, and what do any of us have right?
 
I had a long-ish post about ready, when my computer swallowed the lot. However, I'll note now that Charles's period of suspension is over, so I hope he comes back to the thread.

I've noticed a tendency among woo-woos who show up thinking they can ignore the rules and get an early suspension as a result, simply to disappear in a permanent huff. Some appear on other forums declaring that the JFEF forum has banned them because it wants to suppress their beliefs.

I'm sure Charles won't do that though, will he....

Rolfe.
 
Well, if he hadn't got suspended, I wouldn't have seen his name in Public Notices, and I'd have missed this gem of a thread. :)
 
It was handed by AAIB to RARDE. If it is the chip in the plate on the side of AVE4041 PA, it would have had to turn round and be forced into the plate. Explosions don't do that you know. My inference is that AAIB gave it to RARDE, because AAIB wanted to produce a proper report and RARDE, whose investigators Hayes and Fereday, had already had cases thrown out against them in the English appeal courts, were patsies up to no good.
 
David, it's an inference. How do you set off a seconde xeplosion 14 seconds after the first. You you a radar set and a pager. Of course, the CIA is not going to tell you what they did!
 
David, what is that package that traffic police carry to detect speeding cars? It's a radar set. Of course the CIA has more sophisticated jobs than that!
 
Dear Rolfe,

I'd send you my stuff first but you are so offish and sniffy, and only want to boast publicly of your inadequacies as a thinker.
 

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