Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
So then you don't want me to give you evidence from this thread when you ask for it.
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Helen is saying that the evidence you have presented is insufficient (or is completely wrong). Sending the same old nonsense via PM just gives the impression you are trying to avoid addressing the issues that have been raised.
 
DOC said:
So then you don't want me to give you evidence from this thread when you ask for it.



Giving evidence when it is asked for is not prosletyzing.
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How many people sent you a PM from the thread where you asked for evidence for other religions?
 
DOC said:
Helen said:
There's not much use sending me a PM, linking to this thread, when I ask for evidence, is there, DOC?
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So then you don't want me to give you evidence from this thread when you ask for it.
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There's no evidence for the things that you claim in this thread, DOC. That was the very point that Helen's post was making as it whooshed over your head.


DOC said:
RoboTimbo said:
Unbelievable! He's still sending Prosletyzing Messages!
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Giving evidence when it is asked for is not prosletyzing.
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No, it's not. So why don't you stop proselytizing and start producing evidence.

Learning how to spell proselytizing would help too, just quietly.
 
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Akhenaten said:
There's no evidence for the things that you claim in this thread, DOC. That was the very point that Helen's post was making as it wooshed over your head.





No, it's not. So why don't you stop proselytizing and start producing evidence.

Learning how to spell proselytizing would help too, just quietly.
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I have to take baby steps.
 
Rincewind said:
DOC,

There is NO evidence that the apostles were martyred.

Why, oh why, do you keep claiming that there is?

Where's your evidence?

Thank you....
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Well James, the brother {some say cousin} of Jesus was not an official apostle, but being the first bishop of Jerusalem, he comes close.

Here is what historian Josephus says about him:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:...

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E. Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9.

http://religiousstudies.uncc.edu/people/jtabor/james.html

And we know gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence) stated Stephen was stoned for his Christian faith and the apostle Paul witnessed this stoning.

Regarding the actual apostles martyrdom there is historical evidence, this site on Wiki just didn't spring up out of thin air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

The early church fathers wrote on many of these martyrdoms. Their writings are historical evidence. How much weight you want to give those writings is subjective.

And we know that the main apostle Peter was preaching in Rome at the end of his life.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633

Just the very act of being in Rome preaching and most likely leading the church there is evidence that Peter was certainly willing to die for his faith (given what we know about emperor Nero and his terrible tortures and killing of Christians in 64AD).
 
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DOC said:
Well James, the brother {some say cousin} of Jesus was not an official apostle, but being the first bishop of Jerusalem, he comes close.
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To prove that stories about apostles were accurate, you provide what Josephus says about James, who you aren't sure whether was the brother or the cousin of Jesus, but in any case he wasn't "an official apostle?" That's mind-numbingly dull of you.

DOC said:
And we know gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence) stated Stephen was stoned for his Christian faith and the apostle Paul witnessed this stoning.
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You do this for comedic value at this point, right?

DOC said:
this site on Wiki just didn't spring up out of thin air.
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Got it. Comedy, for sure.
 
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DOC said:
Rincewind said:
DOC,

There is NO evidence that the apostles were martyred.

Why, oh why, do you keep claiming that there is?

Where's your evidence?

Thank you....
Click to expand...


Well James, the brother {some say cousin} of Jesus was not an official apostle, but being the first bishop of Jerusalem, he comes close.

Here is what historian Josephus says about him:

<snip>

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E. Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9.
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But didn't Hegesippus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 2.23) describing the martyrdom of James of Jerusalem say that he was cast from the pinnacle of the Temple in 66CE, and when the fall did not kill him, he was clubbed to death?

So who's fibbing, DOC?


DOC said:
And we know gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence) stated Stephen was stoned for his Christian faith and the apostle Paul witnessed this stoning.
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my bolding

This is yet more of your circular reasoning DOC. You can't use one imaginary person to vouch for another imaginary person. This makes about a billion times you've been told this.


DOC said:
Regarding the actual apostles martyrdom there is historical evidence, this site on Wiki just didn't spring up out of thin air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
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Wanna bet? That's exactly where Wikipedia articles come from.


DOC said:
The early church fathers wrote on many of these martyrdoms. Their writings are historical evidence. How much weight you want to give those writings is subjective.
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my bolding


DOC said:
And we know that the main apostle Peter was preaching in Rome at the end of his life.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633
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You're linking to one of your own posts as a reference for this???

Well, at least nobody is going to call it an Appeal to Authority.
 
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Actually that Wikipedia list of Christian Martyrs DID just spring out of thin air. That particular article provides no corroborating evidence or references for the Apostolic Age (or any other age for that matter).

Checking some of the links from the names to their Wikipedia Pages however, does demonstrate that "tradition has it", "legend says", and "according to Acts..." is a common refrain. Which further demonstrates that Wikipedia Mods are doing their job keeping fumblers honest.

Though it seems to me the Mods should put one of their disclaimers at the top the List Page.

GB
 
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QFD

We've been a little lazy with the re-quoting...

Akhenaten said:
DOC said:
Rincewind said:
DOC,

There is NO evidence that the apostles were martyred.

Why, oh why, do you keep claiming that there is?

Where's your evidence?

Thank you....
Click to expand...


Well James, the brother {some say cousin} of Jesus was not an official apostle, but being the first bishop of Jerusalem, he comes close.

Here is what historian Josephus says about him:

<snip>

Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E. Josephus, Antiquities Book 20: chapter 9.
Click to expand...


But didn't Hegesippus (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. 2.23) describing the martyrdom of James of Jerusalem say that he was cast from the pinnacle of the Temple in 66CE, and when the fall did not kill him, he was clubbed to death?

So who's fibbing, DOC?


DOC said:
And we know gospel writer Luke (who was praised by Sir William M. Ramsay as a great historian regarding things that can be proven by historical and archaeological evidence) stated Stephen was stoned for his Christian faith and the apostle Paul witnessed this stoning.
Click to expand...
my bolding

This is yet more of your circular reasoning DOC. You can't use one imaginary person to vouch for another imaginary person. This makes about a billion times you've been told this.


DOC said:
Regarding the actual apostles martyrdom there is historical evidence, this site on Wiki just didn't spring up out of thin air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs
Click to expand...


Wanna bet? That's exactly where Wikipedia articles come from.


DOC said:
The early church fathers wrote on many of these martyrdoms. Their writings are historical evidence. How much weight you want to give those writings is subjective.
Click to expand...
my bolding


DOC said:
And we know that the main apostle Peter was preaching in Rome at the end of his life.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85633
Click to expand...


You're linking to one of your own posts as a reference for this???

Well, at least nobody is going to call it an Appeal to Authority.
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Gandalfs Beard said:
Actually that Wikipedia list of Christian Martyrs DID just spring out of thin air. That particular article provides no corroborating evidence or references for the Apostolic Age (or any other age for that matter).

Checking some of the links from the names to their Wikipedia Pages however, does demonstrate that "tradition has it", "legend says", and "according to Acts..." is a common refrain. Which further demonstrates that Wikipedia Mods are doing their job keeping fumblers honest.

Though it seems to me the Mods should put one of their disclaimers at the top the List Page.

GB
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[/I]

Actually Wiki was my source - as I wrote.... :)

And thank you, Gandalf's Beard, for confirming my main point - the comments about "according to tradition", etc, etc.

So, DOC - how about a comment or two about the apostles who apparently were martyred several times? Which was the "correct" method? Of course, only one can be right.... but all of them can be wrong. :)

I'd appreciate the corroborating non-biblical references, naturally.....
 
Oh yeah, I forgot - how many of the Church fathers, who wrote about the martyrdoms, were contemporaries of the apostles?

I thought your point was that most of the apostles were martyred - my debunk seems to show that the stories are just that - stories with no independant backing in the real, written world. In other words, fiction - even though it didn't exist at that time....
 
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