Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[A'isha]

And they are all in favor of this Mosque? You sure about that?

That's pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is that it's only "insensitive" to build a mosque close to Ground Zero if you associate all Muslims with the 9/11 attacks.

If they just want a community center for everyone there why make even a portion of it a Mosque?

Because it's their right under the First Amendment? Because there aren't a whole lot of Sufi centers of worship, even in New York City? Because every additional moderate mosque in the US is another source for interfaith understanding (you're totally wrong when you called Rauf "not a moderate," by the way)?

They had a mosque there before 9-11? Have'nt seen that anywhere.

He may be referring to Masjid Manhattan, which is two blocks away and has been there since three decades before 9/11. Even so, he's wrong, since Rauf is not associated with that particular mosque.

I have heard there is a Christian church of what denomination I dont know that they have'nt let rebuild their church. Why are'nt you screaming about that one also?

You don't even know what denomination it is, and yet you feel comfortable enough that you know all the details to excoriate him for not protesting that "they haven't let rebuild their church"?

The St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was essentially destroyed by collapsing debris, on 9/11. The Church elders and the Port Authority had reached a tentative agreement: the PA would purchase the site that the church had stood on, for $20 million, and a new church structure for the Sr. Nicholas congregation would be built at a different location provided by the Authority. However, the deal fell through (Port Authority officials say the Church elders started making too many additional demands on them, like wanting the money upfront and wanting approval of other construction around the site).

But the church still owns the original site, and can still rebuild there if they want to. The Port Authority themselves say there's nothing stopping them from rebuilding on that original site, save perhaps funding issues...and, in fact, the Authority has offered to purchase the space underneath that original site from the church for underground parking.

 

[Belgian thought]

Through his trousers, as usual.

Via his balls perhaps...

 

[thaiboxerken]

Hey, you're really on the ball today huh?

Why else would it be an issue?

So you're admitting that it's bigotry? Thanks for that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Umm, because Ground Zero's obviously still a sensitive subject with most Americans. If this Imam was that moderate he'd understand that feelings are still too sensitive to build a mosque there and build it somewhere else.

He has'nt even considered that though. Because he's not moderate.
He's getting out of this exactly what he wanted. In my view.

I can use this kind of fallacious argument as well.

Only an extremist-fundy-christian would oppose the Mosque. You're opposing the Mosque...therefore....

Just because he's trying to build there doesn't mean he's an extremist. Your premise that a moderate would not build there isn't anywhere near established fact, or even a reasonable hypothesis. Also, most of the opposition didn't blink an eye when he first proposed the building. It wasn't until some conspiracy theorist nut wrote a scary story that the NY Post decided to generate this into a controversy.

 

[johnny karate]

Umm, because Ground Zero's obviously still a sensitive subject with most Americans.

What does this proposed community center have to do with the "sensitivity" regarding Ground Zero?

If this Imam was that moderate he'd understand that feelings are still too sensitive to build a mosque there and build it somewhere else.

I agree. Oh, wait... except for the fact that no one is building a mosque at Ground Zero. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of you parroting a right wing talking point.

He's getting out of this exactly what he wanted. In my view.

What? To exercise his 1st amendment rights? How dare he! Next thing you know he'll be invoking other rights enjoyed by his fellow American citizens.

Somebody should tell him he has brown skin and get him his revised edition of the Constitution before this thing gets out of hand.

 

[nchammer326]

He has'nt even considered that though. Because he's not moderate.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008240027

Might want to read point #4.

 

[Drysdale]

So you're admitting that it's bigotry? Thanks for that.

??

So there is no controversey. Guess I was mistaken.

 

[Drysdale]

What does this proposed community center have to do with the "sensitivity" regarding Ground Zero?



I agree. Oh, wait... except for the fact that no one is building a mosque at Ground Zero. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of you parroting a right wing talking point.



What? To exercise his 1st amendment rights? How dare he! Next thing you know he'll be invoking other rights enjoyed by his fellow American citizens.

Somebody should tell him he has brown skin and get him his revised edition of the Constitution before this thing gets out of hand.

So the OP is incorrect? There is no Mosque construction plans?

 

[Drysdale]

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008240027

Might want to read point #4.

I've read interviews with him. He sounds very Clintonesque.
Spends a lot of time not answering a question regarding his views.

 

[A'isha]

Guess I was mistaken.

Yes you were.

About a whole lot of things, in fact.

So the OP is incorrect? There is no Mosque construction plans?

You seem to have a lot of trouble distinguishing "a community center open to all that includes a room set aside for Muslim prayer in addition to the gym, pool, and memorial to the 9/11 attacks" with "a big scary minaret-adorned building".

I've read interviews with him. He sounds very Clintonesque.

No, you've read edited excerpts of interviews with him posted on right-wing sites. Because if you'd actually read full interviews with him, you wouldn't be making posts with foolishly inaccurate assertions like you have been.

I assume, also, that you're still working on your apology for getting the whole "they aren't letting a Christian church rebuild" thing so egregiously incorrect, right?

Spends a lot of time not answering a question regarding his views.

Boy, if only he'd written an easily-available book laying out exactly what his views are. That might clear this whole mess right up, don't you think?

 

[johnny karate]

So the OP is incorrect? There is no Mosque construction plans?

There is no mosque being built, nor is this non-mosque being built at Ground Zero. It's difficult to take someone seriously when they repeat such ridiculous fabrications.

 

[OneShotKi11]

I think they should have built the Mosque inside the new Freedom Towers. Thus constructing the worlds most terror proof building!

Wont even need to hire security...

 

[leftysergeant]

I think they should have built the Mosque inside the new Freedom Towers. Thus constructing the worlds most terror proof building!

I note your sarcasm and treat it the way I would any other such comment. I would advise you to learn a bit more about sectarian violence within Islam. Wahabis have killed thousands of Shiites and Sufis for not being the right kind of fundamentalist Muslims.

(You were aware, I assume, that there were a lot of Muslims working in the towers and aboard the hijacked aircraft who had nothing to do with the attacks, but died as a result.)

 

[OneShotKi11]

I note your sarcasm and treat it the way I would any other such comment. I would advise you to learn a bit more about sectarian violence within Islam. Wahabis have killed thousands of Shiites and Sufis for not being the right kind of fundamentalist Muslims.

(You were aware, I assume, that there were a lot of Muslims working in the towers and aboard the hijacked aircraft who had nothing to do with the attacks, but died as a result.)

Acknowledges the joke. Then tears apart all of its funny glory.
Thank you sergeant.

 

[leftysergeant]

Acknowledges the joke. Then tears apart all of its funny glory.
Thank you sergeant.

That was a joke? Keep your day job.

 

[Brainster]

The Imam is a slumlord:

In conjunction with others, Rauf is now taking on the largest project of his life with a track record showing that, despite government subsidies, he has had trouble maintaining small apartment buildings in North Bergen, Palisades Park and Union City.

Page after page of municipal health records examined by The Record show repeated complaints ranging from failure to pick up garbage, to rat and bedbug infestations and no heat and hot water.

Cynthia Balko, 48, of Union City — a longtime tenant of Rauf’s — said she’s had to live with rats, leaks and no heat: “I don’t have anything nice to say about the man.”

 

[A'isha]

The Imam is a slumlord:

From the article Rauf is apparently a poor businessman when he invests on his own, because, as a former business partner is quoted as saying, he's spent more time on religious matters than investment matters.

He and his wife also really should have been more diligent about the management companies he hired for his properties (on the recommendation of County officials) since their name appears on a number of the complaints at the heart of this article. Given Rauf's travel overseas and other duties as an imam, author, and lecturer, it's massively unlikely that he's actually involved in the day-to-day management of the properties. The article confirms that, too.

It's also true that, the issues above aside, they do have a responsibility to monitor the management companies they hire, and if those companies aren't managing properly, Rauf and his wife have a duty to step in and ensure that the problems of their tenants are corrected. Rauf's wife says they are, but some of the tenants disagree (though the article doesn't exactly quote from a representative sample).

But all this has what, exactly, to do with the Park51 project he and a host of other partners and developers are involved with? Seriously, after all the "he's a Wahhabist-loving extremist" crap didn't pan out, this is the straw that opponents of the project are now grasping at?

Daibes, a developer of luxury towers along the Hudson, was the construction contractor on the publicly financed Bergenline Avenue rehabilitation project and said he was recommended to Rauf by Hudson County officials.

Later, another Daibes company managed Rauf’s buildings; Daibes said the relationship began because Rauf was traveling out of the country. Daibes said his DBR Management Inc. oversaw Rauf’s assets for perhaps two or three years. DBR’s name appears on some of the violation notices, warning letters and health department complaint logs.

“We collected rents and paid the bills,” said Daibes, noting that Rauf had a building superintendent.

“Mr. Daibes managed the buildings from 1992 to 1997,” Daisy Khan wrote. “He was responsible for the daily upkeep of the properties, handling finances including rent collection and bill payments.”

Daibes did not return a call for comment on Khan’s recollection of his duties.

Daibes said he is surprised by all the publicity Rauf is getting today, recalling him as a “simple guy that owned a couple of buildings in Union City — not a man of wealth or substance. He wasn't an imam back then, but he was religious.”

He said they got friendly — Rauf felt comfortable with him because he spoke Arabic — but didn’t socialize.

“What we talked about is basically how he was looking to find investors so he could get into the development business,” said Daibes, who described himself as a Lebanese Christian.

But Daibes said he “was not impressed” with Rauf as a businessman.

“The truth of the matter, and now it makes sense, in hindsight, he was more focused on religion than business.”

 

[Cleon]

And the fact that Rauf is apparently a poor businessman when he invests on his own (because, as a former business partner is quoted as saying) he's spent more time on religious matters than investment matters, and really should have been more diligent about the management companies he hired for his properties since their name appears on a number of the complaints at the heart of this article (you don't think he and his wife are actually involved in day-to-day management of the buildings they own, do you?) has what, exactly, to do with the Park51 project he and a host of other partners and developers are involved with?

Not that I disagree with the point - quite the contrary - but sweet smurfy jebus, that was painful to read.

 

[A'isha]

Not that I disagree with the point - quite the contrary - but sweet smurfy jebus, that was painful to read.

Gaah, you're right. Let me try and cleanup my trainwreck there.

EDIT: There, is that more readable now?

 

[leftysergeant]

Best I can figure out what that linked article is about, Rauf is not much of an investor, and may have picked some inefficient property managers. I still see no proof of fraud or of utter neglect of his properties. His property manager should have correctred a lot of the discrepencies listed.