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Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

Again, what would a moderate Muslim look like to you? Do they have to agree with America 100% of the time?

BAC posted this link:
http://www.reformislam.org/

You can see my opinion at the top of the page. Anti Obama was the first thing that jumped out at me reading their blog:
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

Then they miss oportunities to illustrate the difference between the Islam they follow and the Islam they don't. eg: They leave a phrase like "Islam and democracy are incompatible" without any clarification -- for quite some time, anyway, I didn't read it all.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67Q5BW20100827

Hmm, surely you defenders cant approve of this... right?

The mosque's backers hope to raise a total of $70 million in tax-exempt debt to build the center, according to the New York Times. Tax laws allow such funding for religiously affiliated non-profits if they can prove the facility will benefit the general public and their religious activities are funded separately.

The bonds could be issued through a local development corporation created for this purpose, experts said.

The Islamic center would have to repay the bonds, which likely would be less expensive than taxable debt.

Yes, this is unimaginably horrific and indefensible, isn't it?
 
Yes, this is unimaginably horrific and indefensible, isn't it?

If they need a loan to build it let them get a private loan.

Why should the govt give them a loan?

Are'nt we already giving this Imam money to travel to Saudi Arabia,Iran etc to raise funds? Why are we doing that as well?

Just wondering, if Jimmy Swaggert was going to borrow from the govt would you be as forgiving?
 
If they need a loan to build it let them get a private loan.

Why should the govt give them a loan?

Because that's what the entire government program they're planning to apply to is for. It's not like this is a bizarre and totally unprecedented thing, you know.

Are'nt we already giving this Imam money to travel to Saudi Arabia,Iran etc to raise funds? Why are we doing that as well?

We aren't.

Just wondering, if Jimmy Swaggert was going to borrow from the govt would you be as forgiving?

If he was borrowing the money to build a gym, pool, and basketball court that anyone could use, and was using an entirely separate non-government-provided set of funds for whatever religious structure/purpose he had in mind, as is happening here, then yes I would.
 
Wait a minute... are American citizens attempting to take advantage of beneficial American government programs freely available to all American citizens?

What's next?

Will the dirty Muslims send their children to our public schools?

Use our postal service?

Drive on our highways?

The horror! THE HORROR!
 
Wait a minute... are American citizens attempting to take advantage of beneficial American government programs freely available to all American citizens?

What's next?

Will the dirty Muslims send their children to our public schools?

Use our postal service?

Drive on our highways?

The horror! THE HORROR!

Yeah... soon these guys are going to start to believe that in the US, the law applies equally to everybody, no matter how white and Christian (or not) they are.
 
I really dont have a lot vested in this since it's NY and I dont live there.
I do think it's in bad taste however.

The govt loan story though caught my attention. I know it's supposedly for other functions and all, still dont agree with it. No more than I would if it was a Christian or ____?
 
I really dont have a lot vested in this since it's NY and I dont live there.
I do think it's in bad taste however.

It's in bad taste for the Park51 people to want to make use of a program in exactly the way the program was explicitly set up to do?

The govt loan story though caught my attention. I know it's supposedly for other functions and all, still dont agree with it. No more than I would if it was a Christian or ____?

Were you upset about the use of funds for qualifying non-profit organizations via a bond process (something used not just in New York, but all over the country) before you learned that it was a Muslim group that was going to apply for this process? Such as, for instance, when the NYCIDA program provided $26 million to The Convent of the Sacred Heart school in Manhattan?

Because, again, the Park51 people aren't doing anything new or unique here, but taking advantage of an existing program specifically set up for things like this. It seems a little like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped to get upset about this bond process being used now to provide money for tax-exempt religious groups...

Plus, the fact that it's a bond process means that they aren't actually getting government money, in the sense that most people talk about. The way it works is that special bonds are authorized and sold by the government (or, in this case, a private local development agency empowered by the government to issue those bonds), and then those proceeds are lent to the borrower. And after that, the borrower has to pay back the money. And since the bond sales are done not as actual government-backed bonds, but as bonds tied to the borrower, if the people who bought the bonds expecting to be paid back don't get their money, the government doesn't have to pay them. And since the money lent comes solely from the sales of bonds, the government itself isn't actually out any cash - all it does is monitor the process and vet people who apply for the process to make sure they at least have a good likelihood of paying back the bond funds.

The advantage for doing this rather than just selling, say, stock, is that the bondholders get no say in the organization itself (any more than the purchasers of, say, Savings Bonds gain extra influence in the government) but they do get a return on their investment in the form of interest when the bond is repaid, and the organization gets a loan at a much lower interest rate than they would with a normal commercial loan. In the case of bonds for a non-profit tax-exempt group like Park51, the advantages are even greater, since both the loan they get and the interest they pay to bondholders are tax exempt, so neither party has to worry about that.
 
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Okay, so the rightwingers here are in agreement that the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives needs to be shut down immediately and any unspent funds returned to the treasury immediately, right?
 
Why is it in bad taste?

Umm, because Ground Zero's obviously still a sensitive subject with most Americans. If this Imam was that moderate he'd understand that feelings are still too sensitive to build a mosque there and build it somewhere else.

He has'nt even considered that though. Because he's not moderate.
He's getting out of this exactly what he wanted. In my view.
 
Umm, because Ground Zero's obviously still a sensitive subject with most Americans.

The set of "Americans" includes a large number of Muslims, you know.

If this Imam was that moderate he'd understand that feelings are still too sensitive to build a mosque there and build it somewhere else.

Now this is just totally insensitive on your part. There are a large number of Muslims who are not Wahabis and who are also deeply wounded by the events of 9/11 and by the actions of dispicable creatures like Breitbart and Geller and the blathermeisters on hate talk radio. They need a place where they can have fellowship with and pray with their neighbors and relatives. Apparently, quite a few of them live and work in the area. So they need a center for their community right where they are. It is not rational to say that the non-Muslims in the area get to heal their wounds in their own places of worship and fellowship, but that the Muslims cannot. I should hardly think I would need to inform a rational person of this. And tell me this. If the residents of the area cannot let go of their anger, if they continue to harbor irrational hatred of the (take yer pick now! Will it be brown? Muslim? Black? Asian people?) are they really healing the wounds or just picking the scabs off? Hatred does not often go away of its own accord after you have driven the person you hate from your community. Animosity between people who have no valid reason to hate can only be resolved by engagement in a peaceful environment. (Like a community center, if you follow what I am saying.)

He has'nt even considered that though. Because he's not moderate.
He's getting out of this exactly what he wanted. In my view.

Yeah, well, he already worshipped in the area before the attack. Do you really think he should move along now, to appease you? His congregation is there. They had a place to worship before the landlord pulled the plug. (And I would like to know whether that might have beeen out of relgious bias.) When you relocate a place of worship, it is, for nearly every faith, a good idea to find a spot within reasonable walking distance

No, I would say that it is the shrieking monkeys, not the Imam, who need to learn some senstivity here.
 
The set of "Americans" includes a large number of Muslims, you know.

And they are all in favor of this Mosque? You sure about that?



Now this is just totally insensitive on your part. There are a large number of Muslims who are not Wahabis and who are also deeply wounded by the events of 9/11 and by the actions of dispicable creatures like Breitbart and Geller and the blathermeisters on hate talk radio. They need a place where they can have fellowship with and pray with their neighbors and relatives. Apparently, quite a few of them live and work in the area. So they need a center for their community right where they are. It is not rational to say that the non-Muslims in the area get to heal their wounds in their own places of worship and fellowship, but that the Muslims cannot. I should hardly think I would need to inform a rational person of this. And tell me this. If the residents of the area cannot let go of their anger, if they continue to harbor irrational hatred of the (take yer pick now! Will it be brown? Muslim? Black? Asian people?) are they really healing the wounds or just picking the scabs off? Hatred does not often go away of its own accord after you have driven the person you hate from your community. Animosity between people who have no valid reason to hate can only be resolved by engagement in a peaceful environment. (Like a community center, if you follow what I am saying.)

If they just want a community center for everyone there why make even a portion of it a Mosque?

Yeah, well, he already worshipped in the area before the attack. Do you really think he should move along now, to appease you? His congregation is there. They had a place to worship before the landlord pulled the plug. (And I would like to know whether that might have beeen out of relgious bias.) When you relocate a place of worship, it is, for nearly every faith, a good idea to find a spot within reasonable walking distance

No, I would say that it is the shrieking monkeys, not the Imam, who need to learn some senstivity here.

They had a mosque there before 9-11? Have'nt seen that anywhere.
I have heard there is a Christian church of what denomination I dont know that they have'nt let rebuild their church. Why are'nt you screaming about that one also?
 

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