The "Nakba" Myth

[manxman]

Wow, you deliberately left out a big important chunk of that article there.

Good job.

Feel free to post what you think i delIbrately left out of a zionist propoganda piece.

 

[bigjelmapro]

would you support splitting up your country among the line of demographics?
i wonder why you then are so against the right to return.

Rephrase it to, would I support the splitting up of a collapsed empire along demographics? And the answer is yes.

At any point you can stop pretending that there was a country there to split up in the first place.

 

[Mycroft]

Arabs owned much more land in Palestine than the Jews did. And yet, the UN gave the Jews a much higher percentage of Palestine than the percentage of the land that they owned.

The Arabs felt this was highly unjust.

But under a peaceful plan everyone who owned land would have continued to own their land. "Giving land" is a misnomer. The issue is sovereignty.


Were the Arabs right to see this as being unjust? Perhaps they were.

Its been said many times, that it looked like the Arabs of Palestine were being forced to somehow be burdened for a crime that was not their doing, the Holocaust.

Two things:

First, the Arab collaboration with Nazi Germany is well documented.

Second, the only thing they've ever been "punished" for is their own violence.

Was the idea of a sovereign, strong, and independent Jewish state the answer to the Jew's problems? Yes.

Was it a mistake to create such a state in a way that burdened folks who had nothing to do with the Jew's suffering? Yes.

In hindsight, I think a Jewish state should have been created in Europe.

This is truly a face-palm moment.

If you claim the issues are the rights and self-determination of the people already there or blame for the Holocaust, why would those issues be any different in the more densely populated Europe?

 

[Pardalis]

Feel free to post what you think i delIbrately left out of a zionist propoganda piece.

Let's go back to reality for a second:

On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), as well as four independent infantry and four independent armored brigades.

[...]

On June 3, days before the war, Egypt flew to Amman two battalions of commandos tasked with infiltrating Israel's borders and engaging in attacks and bombings so as to draw IDF into a Jordanian front and ease the pressure on the Egyptians. Soviet-made artillery and Egyptian military supplies and crews were also flown to Jordan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#The_combatant_armies

Are you still going to claim Egypt didn't see it coming?

 

[DC]

Rephrase it to, would I support the splitting up of an empire along demographics. And the answer is yes.

At any point you can stop pretending that there was a country there to split up in the first place.

what is an empire for you is a country for someone else

 

[Thunder]

First, the Arab collaboration with Nazi Germany is well documented.

as is the Soviet's. as is Chamberlain's.

what's your point?

 

[Pardalis]

right-wing Jews telling folks to let the past go.

haaaa!!!!

I'm not right-wing, and I'm not Jewish, so I don't know who you are referring to.

 

[Mycroft]

In 1947, Palestine was 67% Arab and 33% Jewish. And yet, the UN Partition Plan gave 56% of the land to the Jews.

Now, if you were an Arab in 1947, how would YOU have reacted to such a deal?

That depends.

If I were an Arab land-owner on land that was going to be part of the Jewish state, I'd have to choose if I wanted to be an Arab citizen of that Jewish state (as about 1.2 million people are today), in which case I'd do nothing. Or, if I didn't want to be an Arab citizen of a Jewish state, I'd be looking around for a buyer who would give me a good price for my lands so I could buy other lands in Arab controlled areas.

Killing my Jewish neighbors and condemning my children for generations to come to struggle in a war they can't win wouldn't even be a consideration.

 

[Thunder]

Killing my Jewish neighbors and condemning my children for generations to come to struggle in a war they can't win wouldn't even be a consideration.

though you may have supported the Arabs come in and get rid of the Zionist armies, to prevent the injustice from taking shape.

 

[Thunder]

Mycroft- did the Palestinians colloborate with the Nazis?

 

[manxman]

Let's go back to reality for a second:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#The_combatant_armies

Are you still going to claim Egypt didn't see it coming?

Also from the same link.

On 30 May, Nasser responded to Johnson's request of 11 days earlier and agreed to send his Vice President, Zakkariya Muhieddin, to Washington on June 7 to explore a diplomatic settlement in "precisely the opening the White House had sought".[116] Historian Michael Oren writes that Rusk was "mad as hell" and that Johnson later wrote "I have never concealed my regret that Israel decided to move when it did"


Johnston personally ordered the Liberty out there to keep an eye on the Israelis, as he was totally against any israeli action and had assured the Egyptians that Israel would not act against them.

edited to add
Its the most commonly held reason as to why Israel tried to sink the liberty, to conceal their plans/preparation of their sneak attack.

 

[Thunder]

oh, and here is a lovely statement by the Arabs, explaining their attack on Israel:

"The official motives for their intervention were set out in a statement[113] of 15 May 1948 :
the only solution of the Palestine problem is the establishment of a unitary Palestinian State, in accordance with democratic principles, whereby its inhabitants will enjoy complete equality before the law, [and whereby] minorities will be assured of all the guarantees recognised in democratic constitutional countries ...."

 

[Mycroft]

though you may have supported the Arabs come in and get rid of the Zionist armies, to prevent the injustice from taking shape.

You think being an Arab living in a predominantly Jewish land is an "injustice"?

Do you also think being a Jew living in a predominantly Christian land is an "injustice"? Why or why not?

 

[Pardalis]

Johnston personally ordered the Liberty out there to keep an eye on the Israelis, as he was totally against any israeli action and had assured the Egyptians that Israel would not act against them.

But Egypt had planned an attack earlier, and had amassed troop at the border and sent commandos to Jordan days before June 5th, so you can't claim they didn't expect a war, or some kind of conlfict.

Its the most commonly held reason as to why Israel tried to sink the liberty, to conceal their plans/preparation of their sneak attack.

The conspiracy theory subforum is over there.

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft- did the Palestinians colloborate with the Nazis?

Not all of them, but certainly some of their most influential leaders from the time.


http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

 

[Thunder]

You think being an Arab living in a predominantly Jewish land is an "injustice"?

Do you also think being a Jew living in a predominantly Christian land is an "injustice"? Why or why not?

I think giving the Jews 54% of Palestine when they only made up 33% of the population, was unfare.

How do you justify something like that to 67% of the population who is not Jewish?

if you were the UN High Commissioner for Palestine, how would you have explained such a plan to the local Arabs?

 

[Mycroft]

I think giving the Jews 54% of Palestine when they only made up 33% of the population, was unfare.

Why?

As long as the rights of all people are respected, what difference do the actual proportions make?

Your alternative suggestion is to carve a chunk out of Europe that would have been 95% non-Jewish. Why is that better?

How do you justify something like that to 67% of the population who is not Jewish?

For one, post-Holocaust they were anticipating a lot more Jewish immigration. Millions more.

Two, the sheer size of Arab lands surrounding the region is staggering. It's not as though Arab peoples would be lacking a homeland, they have literally dozens.

if you were the UN High Commissioner for Palestine, how would you have explained such a plan to the local Arabs?

You don't seem to have a problem explaining to Israel the need for a "viable" Palestinian state, why would it have been different explaining to Arabs the need for a "viable" Jewish state?

I answer all your questions, how about answering mine about the "injustice" you suffer in being a "Jew" living in predominantly a Christian nation?

 

[Thunder]

Why?

As long as the rights of all people are respected, what difference do the actual proportions make?

well then, why not just give the Arabs 10%?

numbers don't matter..right?

 

[manxman]

But Egypt had planned an attack earlier, and had amassed troop at the border and sent commandos to Jordan days before June 5th, so you can't claim they didn't expect a war, or some kind of conlfict.

The conspiracy theory subforum is over there.

You know aswell as i do that the attack they planned was canceled to go the diplomatic route, it says so in the link YOU provided, my claim that Egypt was not expecting an attack is also partly verified in the same link.
Russia assured them that Israel would not attack and johnston assured the Russians and the Egyptians that Israel would not attack.
The Egyptian airforce had been stood down.

You apologists make me laugh with your squirming, always the poor zionist under threat when they lash out FIRST.

 

[Thunder]

I answer all your questions, how about answering mine about the "injustice" you suffer in being a "Jew" living in predominantly a Christian nation?

horrible analogy. try the British moving into North America and pushing out the Native Americans. thats a much better analogy.

still waiting for proof that I blaim Jews, including myself, for anti-Semitism.