Cancer rise in Fallujah

[WildCat]

This is a debate forum.

It's actually a critical thinking forum, and there's not much of that coming from the "OMG the US has poisoned Fallujah with DU" side.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

The article doesn't say that at all.

"In Kosovo, the US Air Force A-10s fired over 31,000 rounds of 30 mm DU ammunition. U.S. sniper and special forces teams had 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm (.50 cal) DU ammunition, although expenditures are not readily available."

 

[FireGarden]

It's actually a critical thinking forum, and there's not much of that coming from the "OMG the US has poisoned Fallujah with DU" side.

Doesn't seem to be much at all coming from that side. I seem to have missed their posts.

 

[WildCat]

"In Kosovo, the US Air Force A-10s fired over 31,000 rounds of 30 mm DU ammunition. U.S. sniper and special forces teams had 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm (.50 cal) DU ammunition, although expenditures are not readily available."

It says they "had" such ammo, not that they used it.

It also doesn't source the claim that they even had it. I've looked, and I can't find any evidence that the US military has such a round in its inventory, let alone ever used it in the field.

Maybe the reporter just assumed that armor-piercing rounds were DU?

 

[WildCat]

Doesn't seem to be much at all coming from that side. I seem to have missed their posts.

I guess in your world accepting claims without evidence is a hallmark of critical thinking.

Not mine.

 

[theprestige]

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp

Depleted Uranium used by US special forces and sniper teams in 7.62mm bullets.

Which is an interesting claim, but appears to be unsourced, and lacking in other corroboration. Again, the corroborating evidence I've found for DU in 7.62mm is that it was tested in limited quantities during the 1990s (maybe in the Balkan conflict? I don't know), but ultimately abandoned.

Also, citing an unsourced claim of this ammunition from over ten years ago hardly satisfies my request for evidence that this ammunition is currently in use by the U.S. armed forces.

UN report detailing traces of uranium found in buildings targetted by DU munitions:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=5326&Cr=uranium&Cr1=bosnia

Here's a list of some targets that were engaged using 30mm DU munitions by NATO in the former Yugoslavia:
http://www.nato.int/du/docu/d010124b.htm

You will notice that included amongst the armoured targets (t-55, a self-propelled gun, a vehicle repair facility) are warehouses, mortar positions and ammunition storage depots.

This would all be awsome support for a claim that DU was a potential cause of birth defects in Yugoslavia (speaking of which, have there been any similar studies done in that region, with similar results?).

Please let me know when you have this kind of information about Fallujah.

This guy http://www.unidir.org/pdf/articles/pdf-art2759.pdf
seems unreliable... his work was picked up by UNIDIR, so does that make it credible? I dunno. In any case, he seems to suggest DU might be used in the SMAW-NE. I haven't seen this corroborated elsewhere, however. The exact contents of the explosives used are likely to be fairly secret, I would imagine.

Protip: If it's explosive, it's not DU.

SMAW-NE is a thermobaric warhead. By definition, it operates by dispersing a flammable aerosol and then igniting it. You could almost consider this to be the exact opposite of a kinetic-energy anti-armor weapon. The SMAW-NE was a limited, "one-time buy" for the USMC. Were the Marines even deployed in Fallujah during the period in question? The reporter is obviously an ignoramus on this topic, as any 30-second Google search on "SMAW-NE" reveals. Far from lending him credibility, UNIDIR severely undermines its own credibility by picking up his work.

So, to recap: The U.S. Army experimented with small(er)-caliber DU rounds about a decade before the events in Fallujah. They may even have tested such rounds in the field (Bosnia-Herzegovina) during that period, but there's no evidence that they did so, and there's no evidence that they had any such ammunition ten years later. Meanwhile, there's at least some evidence that the Army discontinued research of small-caliber DU rounds in the interim, and never actually produced or deployed the rounds in significant numbers.

There is, in addition, plenty of evidence that DU was used in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, but this is obviously totally useless for supporting claims that DU was used in Fallujah in the mid-2000s.

Finally, some jackass reporter who is hugely, obviously wrong about the subject, is cited as a possible authority on the subject.

So where were we?

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp

Bingo! Game over for the DU truthers.

From the article Capt. Sassy just linked:

Overall, some 300 tonnes of DU munitions were fired in the Gulf War and in excess of 9 tonnes in Kosovo.​

Wikipedia article on Coal Power Plants:

A 1,000 MW coal-burning power plant could have an uncontrolled release of as much as 5.2 metric tons per year of uranium (containing 74 pounds (34 kg) of uranium-235) and 12.8 metric tons per year of thorium.​

I live in an area served by a 1200 megawatt coal fired power plant. According to the stats in the article provided by Sassy, my community has suffered an assault at the hands of our local utility provider nearly eight times greater than what the United States Air Force did to Kosovo. Do the DU truthers suggest that I consider moving to Fallujah or Kosovo for the sake of my families health?

FULL DISCLOSURE: I just spent the evening with my sister and her four kids, all below the age of eight. They did not appear defective to the naked eye.

 

[bit_pattern]

So what DOES cause the massive spike in birth deformities and cancer clusters that seem to follow America around wherever they wage war?

The whole pro-DU/ant-DU debate becomes a bit redundant after awhile when it is patently obvious that something is causing these problems. Shouldn't the focus be on figuring out jus what the **** it is we are wreaking on the civilian populations we go to war against?

 

[Virus]

So what DOES cause the massive spike in birth deformities and cancer clusters that seem to follow America around wherever they wage war?

Prove these things spike after all US conflicts.

The whole pro-DU/ant-DU debate becomes a bit redundant after awhile when it is patently obvious that something is causing these problems. Shouldn't the focus be on figuring out jus what the **** it is we are wreaking on the civilian populations we go to war against?

Why do we automatically assume the US is to blame and not Saddam or insurgent groups?

 

[bit_pattern]

Prove these things spike after all US conflicts.

Read the thread.

Why do we automatically assume the US is to blame and not Saddam or insurgent groups?

This coming from a guy who tried to suggest that it is all just a result of cousins rooting cousins

But just to humour you because I'm bored;

Because it happens in other places that America has fought, ie. ex-Yugoslavia, and America tends to out-do it's opposition by an order of magnitude when it comes to dropping explosive chemicals on any given battlefield.

But, hell, maybe it IS a result of something that Saddam or the "insurgents" did, which is why we need a comprehensive and independent epidemiological study into the phenomenon, which by at least some accounts American forces have been resisting quite heavily in Iraq.

If we are going to be JAQing off like you are a much better question would be; why is this so?

 

[McHrozni]

So what DOES cause the massive spike in birth deformities and cancer clusters that seem to follow America around wherever they wage war?

One option is that it's anti-war activists and "scientists" who cook and manipulate or gather the data selectively enough to produce results showing a significant increase of birth deformities and cancer in the region, in order to smear the US.

McHrozni

 

[bit_pattern]

One option is that it's anti-war activists and "scientists" who cook and manipulate or gather the data selectively enough to produce results showing a significant increase of birth deformities and cancer in the region, in order to smear the US.

McHrozni

Oh, that explains it then!

 

[FireGarden]

This would all be awsome support for a claim that DU was a potential cause of birth defects in Yugoslavia (speaking of which, have there been any similar studies done in that region, with similar results?).

Please let me know when you have this kind of information about Fallujah.

This thread is long, so I may not know all the details of your conversation with Captain Sassy. But it was my impression that he posted that data to counter the claim that DU is never (or hardly ever) used against buildings. Hence the word "warehouses" in the text you quoted.

That's what this thread has turned into. It quite something when Pardalis is the poster who has expressed the most concern, in the last few pages, for the people of Fallujah. (No offence, buddy!) But people have gotten involved in testing out each other's expertise. Claims are made, people look for infomation which refutes it. That's basically what goes on in the forum.

So, unless you comment on the possible use of DU against buildings (as a general policy), then I don't think you've actually addressed Captain Sassy's point.

 

[JihadJane]

That's what this thread has turned into. It quite something when Pardalis is the poster who has expressed the most concern, in the last few pages, for the people of Fallujah.

Genuine concern, I'm sure...

 

[FireGarden]

Genuine concern, I'm sure...

The only point I'd make is that Pardalis isn't the most touchy-feely poster on the forum. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity when he does express concern.

 

[JihadJane]

The only point I'd make is that Pardalis isn't the most touchy-feely poster on the forum. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity when he does express concern.

Fair enough. I suspect "concern trolling" myself, but only Pardalis knows the truth of it!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

So what DOES cause the massive spike in birth deformities and cancer clusters that seem to follow America around wherever they wage war?

Whinging anti-american activist "researchers" cause cancer.

If these people would stop stalking the US military and looking for dirt, you would stop seeing spikes in reported cancer and birth defects after US military actions.

 

[bit_pattern]

Whinging anti-american activist "researchers" cause cancer.

If these people would stop stalking the US military and looking for dirt, you would stop seeing spikes in reported cancer and birth defects after US military actions.

Oh, that's gold! If only those stupid, biased, American hating cancer victims would just STOP reporting their illnesses then there wouldn't BE a problem!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Funny how you saw "victims" where I clearly said "researchers".

 

[bit_pattern]

Oh, because that makes ALL the difference! You obviously have a very good case; anybody who ever says anything bad about America must be in cahoots. Because, after all...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6274440&postcount=372

Don't hold back there though, what other conspiracies against America are these medical researchers involved in?