Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[leftysergeant]

Pieces of the landing gear from United Airlines Flight 175 crashed through the roof of the then Burlington Coat Factory 45 Park Place New York City NY.

Now just for your edification, the former Burlington Coat Factory location is where the owners wish to build their Ground Zero mosque.

So a group of Muslims who think that the Muslims who did the dirty deed are heretics wants top rehabilitate the site and deveelop a center for peace-keeping and understanding. They want to heal the wounds. The worthless twits like Breitbart and Geller want to rub in the salt.

The terrorists win if Breitbart and Geller win.

They are terrorists themselves.

 

[BeAChooser]

And this leads you to conclude that the Reformation was all about tolerance?

I didn't say that. I said that it had everything to do with tolerance as opposed to your claim it had "nothing to do with tolerance". It CLEARLY had to do with tolerance because more religious tolerance was the end result of the Reformation process. In fact, the question of tolerance became a central issue for the first time during the reformation. Maybe not tolerance to every religion, but tolerance between different Christian beliefs at least. Also the issue of separation of church and state became a concern for the first time during the Reformation. Now that doesn't mean the Reformation ended all intolerance in the West, or led to just secular governments. Just that it was the catalyst that eventually led to a far more tolerant, secularly governed, civilization in the West.

Such a process has not yet taken place in most of the Muslim world. And, by the way, equally important to the growth of religious tolerance and separation of church and state in Western Civilization was the Enlightenment Period, but that didn't and couldn't occur until the Reformation had occurred. Nor do I expect can it in the Islamic world. As things currently stand there is much religious intolerance between Islamic sects (just look at the violence and death in Iraq that resulted from that). The Islamic world needs some form of Reformation and Enlightenment so that Muslims of different beliefs can begin to live peacefully together and with people of non-Muslim beliefs in more secularly governed societies. Or there will be no end to the violence.

Or let me express it another way. The belief in Jihad (religious war waged against non-believers) and the idea that everyone must be converted to Islam or be killed, which still grips much of the Islamic world, is simply incompatible with modern Western civilization. Yes, at one time the Christian world believed much the same things ... but no longer. Like I said, Muslims need to leave the 14th century and enter the 21st century ... or this will only end in further bloodshed.

 

[The Painter]

that's not very nice.

what is soo evil about them that you wish the building is hit by a plane and the Cordoba folks die in a collapse?

Where did I say that? Wait, are you saying that it will happen again?

 

[leftysergeant]

Christians have been trying to wipe out Islam since before Mecca was Muslim. When Christians cease and desist from that,according to the Qur'an, Muslims will be required to make peace.

Have you read the Qur'an, BAC? You should, if you have not.

 

[hgc]

Christians have been trying to wipe out Islam since before Mecca was Muslim. When Christians cease and desist from that,according to the Qur'an, Muslims will be required to make peace.

Have you read the Qur'an, BAC? You should, if you have not.

Dude... Are you seriously suggesting that someone go read a religious text in order to predict how religious adherents will behave?

No, I'm not being sarcastic. That's just not very useful advice.

 

[leftysergeant]

Dude... Are you seriously suggesting that someone go read a religious text in order to predict how religious adherents will behave?

No, I'm not being sarcastic. That's just not very useful advice.

Well, if he is capable of comprehending what he reads...

Hmmm...Do I assume too much?

 

[hgc]

Well, if he is capable of comprehending what he reads...

Hmmm...Do I assume too much?

It's not an issue of comprehending the text -- it's all drivel anyway.

Comprehending the text won't help anyone understand or predict the actions of nations, power elites and mass movements. They act for their own reasons, and the sacred text is merely pretext.

It's like saying you should read the bible to find out when the American Taliban will finally stop insisting on theocratizing our society. You won't find the answer therein.

 

[leftysergeant]

It's not an issue of comprehending the text -- it's all drivel anyway.

Comprehending the text won't help anyone understand or predict the actions of nations, power elites and mass movements. They act for their own reasons, and the sacred text is merely pretext.

It's like saying you should read the bible to find out when the American Taliban will finally stop insisting on theocratizing our society. You won't find the answer therein.

I find that a lot of Muslim bashers do so on the assumption that there is some commandment in the Qur'an to make holy war against all non-believers just because they are non-believers. Hannity and the Russhblob are notorious for that.

It would be nice if some of the Muslims who comprehend what the Qur'an requires of them had a place to gather and share that message, and if some of those who had no idea what is in the Qur'an would shut up while the grown-ups are talking.

 

[hgc]

I find that a lot of Muslim bashers do so on the assumption that there is some commandment in the Qur'an to make holy war against all non-believers just because they are non-believers. Hannity and the Russhblob are notorious for that.

It would be nice if some of the Muslims who comprehend what the Qur'an requires of them had a place to gather and share that message, and if some of those who had no idea what is in the Qur'an would shut up while the grown-ups are talking.

What use is there of knowing what's in the book? The last thing I want is more religious people, of any stripe, learning more about what their holy books instruct them to do, since most of them contain outdated advice, at best, and instructions for subjugation and genocide at worst.

 

[leftysergeant]

What use is there of knowing what's in the book? The last thing I want is more religious people, of any stripe, learning more about what their holy books instruct them to do, since most of them contain outdated advice, at best, and instructions for subjugation and genocide at worst.

Were you aware that the Qur'an is the first holy text to codify into law the right of women to inherit property?

 

[hgc]

Were you aware that the Qur'an is the first holy text to codify into law the right of women to inherit property?

Isn't that nice. It also calls for lewd women to be confined in their homes until dead.

But this is quite the digression...

 

[leftysergeant]

Isn't that nice. It also calls for lewd women to be confined in their homes until dead.

Where?

 

[hgc]

Where?

The Book of Women 4:15.

 

[Scott Jurgenson]

What use is there of knowing what's in the book? The last thing I want is more religious people, of any stripe, learning more about what their holy books instruct them to do, since most of them contain outdated advice, at best, and instructions for subjugation and genocide at worst.

Exactly. Well put.

 

[BeAChooser]

Were you aware that the Qur'an is the first holy text to codify into law the right of women to inherit property?

Good for them. But then we have now progressed beyond them where women's rights are concerned. Haven't we. Perhaps now it is their turn to advance. And under Sharia law, the ownership of property rests with God. Which gives theocracies like those governing many Islamic countries considerable power over what happens to property. Whether the people want it or not.

You see that is the problem here. There are two things … the religion and Sharia. Sharia law is where the most extreme and dated views of Muslims are codified into *law*. And since you mentioned women's rights, it's worth noting that one of the chief elements of Sharia law is a belief that women are inferior. This view of women it is totally inconsistent with modern Western civilization. Wouldn't you agree, lefty?

Now if Muslims would just stick to building places of worship … for prayers … their building of Mosques would be a lot less problematic. But it appears that only about 20% are just for religious prayer. It's estimated that about 80% of mosques in the US are under Wahhabi control (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/207366/wahhabism-islam-u-s/stephen-schwartz ). Wahhabism is the extreme brand of Islam which promotes Sharia law. It is practiced in Saudi Arabia. In fact, it is the state religion of Saudi Arabia with no others allowed. In Saudi Arabia women aren't even allowed to drive. The 9/11 terrorists had links to Wahhabism. Truth is, Wahhabi mosques (mostly Saudi funded) are more centers to study, teach and promote Sharia law than strictly religious facilities for prayer. And that is the problem.

Here's why ...

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=57141

The Mapping Sharia in America Project, sponsored by the Washington-based Center for Security Policy, has trained former counterintelligence and counterterrorism agents from the FBI, CIA and U.S. military, who are skilled in Arabic and Urdu, to conduct undercover reconnaissance at some 2,300 mosques and Islamic centers and schools across the country.

"So far of 100 mapped, 75 should be on a watchlist," an official familiar with the project said.

Many of the Islamic centers are operating under the auspices of the Saudi Arabian government and U.S. front groups for the radical Muslim Brotherhood based in Egypt.

Frank Gaffney, a former Pentagon official who runs the Center for Security Policy, says the results of the survey have not yet been published. But he confirmed that "the vast majority" are inciting insurrection and jihad through sermons by Saudi-trained imams and anti-Western literature, videos and textbooks.

Note, lefty, that the Cordoba *house* … now renamed Park 51 … is intended to be a center for the study and promotion of Sharia. And it will likely end up mostly funded by Saudi Arabia if it is built. The Mosque will be quite secondary to it's purpose. They have even admitted as much. And of the man promoting it, note that at least two of Imam Rauf's books have pushed the implementation of Sharia and Wahhabism. And he has applauded certain Muslim *scholars* who have defended Wahhabism and claimed Sharia is compatible with our Bill of Rights rolleyes. And that's the problem.

Now these Muslims have more the right idea:

http://www.reformislam.org/

 

[Lurker]

Good for them. But then we have now progressed beyond them where women's rights are concerned. Haven't we. Perhaps now it is their turn to advance.

Agreed. They should advance. What would a moderate muslim look like to you? Have you read what Rauf has said?

Now if Muslims would just stick to building places of worship … for prayers … their building of Mosques would be a lot less problematic. But it appears that only about 20% are just for religious prayer. It's estimated that about 80% of mosques in the US are under Wahhabi control (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/207366/wahhabism-islam-u-s/stephen-schwartz ).

80%? Really? If we are ovverrun with wahabism here in the states it is suprising that so many of the Muslims attending those same mosques seem pretty American and nonviolent.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=57141
Note, lefty, that the Cordoba *house* … now renamed Park 51 … is intended to be a center for the study and promotion of Sharia. And it will likely end up mostly funded by Saudi Arabia if it is built. The Mosque will be quite secondary to it's purpose. They have even admitted as much. And of the man promoting it, note that at least two of Imam Rauf's books have pushed the implementation of Sharia and Wahhabism. And he has applauded certain Muslim *scholars* who have defended Wahhabism and claimed Sharia is compatible with our Bill of Rights rolleyes. And that's the problem.

Rauf has said that the US is already sharia compliant so there is no requirement to change our laws to accomodate *your* version of sharia.

You say the mosque is secondary in their purpose. Instead of your imagining what the primary purpose is why don't you actually quote from Rauf what the primary purpose is according to the owner of said development. Why don't you do that, sir? Instead you allow your fear to imagine a nefarious purpose.

 

[hgc]

...
You say the mosque is secondary in their purpose. Instead of your imagining what the primary purpose is why don't you actually quote from Rauf what the primary purpose is according to the owner of said development. Why don't you do that, sir? Instead you allow your fear to imagine a nefarious purpose.

Even worse, he's relying on Frank Gaffney's mosque infiltration program. You might as well ask Sue Myrick.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Because of what Abd ar-Rahman I did in the 7th century it is offensive for a muslim community center to be built 2 blocks from where the twin towers stood. Yea that makes sense.

This has to be the most pathetic attack on the community center yet.

The wounds from the 8th century are still fresh. Now is just not a good time. Perhaps in the year 3300.

Rauf has said that the US is already sharia compliant so there is no requirement to change our laws to accomodate *your* version of sharia.

Even if one were to interpret Sharia in the absolute most harsh way, for Rauf to say that America is Sharia-compliant would be almost as stupid as someone saying that America is a Christian nation, so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

 

[johnny karate]

It would interesting to find out whether the owners of the mosque to be built at ground zero...

As far as I know, no mosque is going to be built at Ground Zero. Do you have a source for this claim?

Did you hear about American Airlines Flight 11 that crashed into the World Trade Center's North Tower, and then United Airlines Flight 175 which hit the South Tower on September 11, 2001?

Pieces of the landing gear from United Airlines Flight 175 crashed through the roof of the then Burlington Coat Factory 45 Park Place New York City NY.

Now just for your edification, the former Burlington Coat Factory location is where the owners wish to build their Ground Zero mosque.


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/Polythemus/groundzero.jpg

An easier way to respond would have been to say "I repeated an erroneous right wing talking point and was factually wrong". But by all means, don't let reality get in the way of your cheap emotional plea. We certainly haven't seen enough of people cynically exploiting 9/11 as a means to an end.

 

[johnny karate]

I've changed my position on the mosque. I say we give them the top 10 floors of the new tower being built.

I agree. And then let's let them have sex with our wives and eat our children.

But ridiculous, nonsensical, completely-pulled-out-of-my-backside hyperbole aside, we need to stop these dirty Muslims while we can. Am I right?

*high-fives The Painter*