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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Just because you say so doesn't make it so.
Of course… that is why I presented the video evidence – so that you do not have to rely merely on my say so.

You don't know the size of the debris, you don't know the distance to the debris, you don't know the relative trajectories of the debris, you pretty much don't know anything about anything that is seen in the video.
I do know that the trajectories of the debris in the videos seem to defy mundane explanation. RoboTimbo even went so far as to claim that “Satisfactory explanations have been put forward”. Yet I am still waiting for those explanations to materialise…

And still you claim that it doesn't behave like debris should. Do you know something about the debris that I don't? Would you like to show some calculations to substantiate your claim?
What claim? That the trajectories seem to defy mundane explanation? I would have thought that was obvious from the video evidence. My question is: What in the vacuum of space could cause the debris to behave as it does? Propose any size and any distance you like – you still must answer that basic question.

…and what (relevant and possible) calculations would you like to see conducted? If you can think of any that would have any direct bearing on enlightening us in the cases then please name them and if possible I will be happy to conduct them.
 
If you look back through my posts I think you will find I was spelling “debris” correctly long before your attempt at ridicule. What happened to the spelling in the post you reference I am not sure, but if you felt strongly enough about it, you could have simply pointed out the error without the ridicule. Besides – if we were going to get into a spelling (or grammatical) war… then might I suggest you are picking on the wrong target here.
I did correct you first in a previous post. You continued to use debri in posts after that, that's when I linked to the Wiki article on the Debri people. There was no ridicule involved.

…but of course the reason for that is once again a distraction from your inability to answer the question under direct examination here – that concerning the trajectories of the debris shown in the videos I have presented.
What question is it that I need to answer concerning bits of debris? You are the one proposing that they are aliens, the burden of proof is yours. Are you really theorizing that bits of debris are aliens because you can't explain each ones apparent trajectory? Or rather more accurately, you can't get anyone else to explain each one for you? If that's your case for aliens, I can't help you.

But you are the one who persists in bringing the Campeche case to our attention… however when I point out that there likely was a UFO involved (unrelated to the probably misidentified oil well fires), as outlined in the analysis here (http://brumac.8k.com/MexicanDOD5mar04/), you simply refuse to discuss the case any further. In my opinion that represents a denial of the evidence if I ever saw it.
Why were the oil well fires misidentified? What were they originally thought to be by UFO creduloids?
 
You are making many unfounded assumptions here. First that the cases are unrelated (they could have common basis – we just don’t know),
You were the one who said they were unrelated. I agreed with you.
that the cases I have been presenting are “uncompelling” (that is merely your opinion),
That is based on the evidence you have provided.
that the evidence contained within those cases is somehow “bad” (there is no such thing as bad evidence – the evidence either supports a case or it does not – it is either evidence or it is not evidence),
I concede the point. Your evidence is merely uncompelling.
and finally that I have been attempting to mount a case that adds up to aliens (I am merely presenting cases that seemingly defy mundane explanation and proposing that those cases represent UFOs and that the “objects” represented are therefore “alien” in the sense of seemingly being outside our concept of the natural or technological world).
And you've failed to convince anyone other than UFO creduloids because your evidence is uncompelling. Also because, although the burden of proof is entirely yours, other people have given you reasonable explanations for the things that defied mundane explanation to you and you hand waved them away.

You however seem unable to, or incapable of, directly addressing any of the evidence in the cases I have been presenting - and that evidence surrounds (first) the trajectories of the debris in the videos I have latterly presented and (second) the evidence for a UFO in the Campeche incident. Don’t you have anything to say that directly addresses the evidence in those cases?
You are shifting the burden of proof again. I will continue to point it out to you whenever you do it. I expect I'll be doing it a lot.

What constitutes a “best” case is a matter of subjective opinion. Your question is akin to asking someone to put forward their “best” case for gravity or evolution. One person might provide an example that (in their opinion) “proves” either, but (coming from a different perspective) another might argue that a better case could be made by showing it in a different way. An intractable argument might then ensue about the relative merits of either that make it a “best” case. Is it not far better to simply recognise that there are many lines of evidence that converge and support the ultimate conclusion (be it gravity, evolution or UFOs) and that no one line of evidence is intrinsically better than another that ends in the same conclusion?
Gravity and evolution both have theories. What is your theory for aliens? How would it be falsifiable?

I have been presenting a number of cases that I consider good cases - but as to which is “best” is a matter of personal opinion. These have included:

The Battle of Los Angeles (25 Feb 1942)
(http://brumac.8k.com/BATTLEOFLA/BOLA1.html)
The Rogue River Case (24 May 1949)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver2.htm)
White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/WhiteSandsProof/WhiteSandsProof.html)
The Trent - McMinnville UFO (11 May 1950)
(http://brumac.8k.com/trent1.html)
Photo 1. (http://www.debunker.com/images2/Trent1_Full_400dpi.jpg)
Photo 2. (http://www.debunker.com/images2/Trent2_Full_400dpi.jpg)
The Trindade Island Photographs (16 Jan 1958)
(http://www.nicap.org/baraunadir.htm)
The Father Gill - Papua New Guinea UFO (26-28 Jun 1959)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case67.htm)
The Zamora Incident (24 Apr 1964)
(http://www.nicap.org/zamoradir.htm)
Apollo 10 (Launch 18 May 1969)
(http://history.nasa.gov/ap10fj/as10-video-library.htm - Magazine K)
Skylab 3 (Launch 28 Jul 1973)
(http://brumac.8k.com/Skylab3/SL3.html)
The Travis Walton Abduction (5 Nov 1975)
(http://www.travis-walton.com/index.shtml)
Tehran UFO Incident (19 Sep 1976)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5kT2OE1i1Q&feature=related)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/IranJetCase/)
The New Zealand (Kaikoura) UFO sightings (31 Dec 1978)
(http://brumac.8k.com/NEW_ZEALAND/RADARUFOS.doc)
Rendlesham Forest/Bentwaters UFO Incident (25–27 Dec 1980)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/RendleshamForest.htm)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgW3vEYA-Bg&feature=player_embedded)
Val Jonhson - Minnesota Vehicle Interference and Physical Traces Event (27 Aug. 1979)
(http://ufologie.net/htm/marshallcounty79.htm)
The Cash/Landrum Incident (29 Dec 1980)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/CashLandrum1.html)
JAL Flight 1628 UFO Encounter (17 Nov 1986)
(http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/JL1628.html)
STS-48 Discovery (Launch 15 Sep 1991)
1. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1FR_1MKbGY&NR=1)
2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z-lHVB6Yuo&feature=related)
STS-71 Atlantis (Launch 27 Jun 1995)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ7EgRiU5Zo&feature=related)
Giant UFO over the Yukon Gold Fields/Indian River (1996)
(http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/22index.htm)
STS-75 Columbia (Launch 22 Feb 1996)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I)
STS-80 Columbia (Launch 19 Nov 1996)
1. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6113062&hl=en#)
2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJyuQVIFdKo)
The Campeche Incident (5 Mar 2004)
(http://brumac.8k.com/MexicanDOD5mar04/)
STS-115 Atlantis (Launch 9 Sep 2006)
1. (http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/gallery/video/shuttle/sts-115/qtime/sts115_fd01_03.mov)
2. (http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-115/html/s115e07201.html)
O’Hare – Chicago International Airport UFO Sighting (7 Nov 2006)
(http://www.narcap.org/reports/010/TR10_Case_18a.pdf)

And have also provided supporting research evidence such as:

The Battelle Study (5 May 1955 - Blue Book Special Report No. 14)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/specialreport14.pdf)
The Condon Report (1968)
(http://ncas.org/condon/)
Hoyt – History and rationale behind Condon exposed (20 Apr 2000)
(http://www.narcap.org/commentary/ufocritique.pdf)
The Sturrock Panel Workshop (30 Sep – 3 Oct 1997)
(http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_1_sturrock.pdf) and (http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_2_sturrock.pdf)

(to name but a very few…)
Do you have an opinion as to which constitutes a “best” case?
You are shifting the burden of proof here. Which do you think constitutes a best case?
 
Of course… that is why I presented the video evidence – so that you do not have to rely merely on my say so.


I do know that the trajectories of the debris in the videos seem to defy mundane explanation. RoboTimbo even went so far as to claim that “Satisfactory explanations have been put forward”. Yet I am still waiting for those explanations to materialise…
Please reread the entire thread then. For those specific to the debris in space, start with post #7321 on page 184.

What claim? That the trajectories seem to defy mundane explanation? I would have thought that was obvious from the video evidence. My question is: What in the vacuum of space could cause the debris to behave as it does? Propose any size and any distance you like – you still must answer that basic question.
You are shifting the burden of proof here. The question is, what size and distance are they? Don't you know?

…and what (relevant and possible) calculations would you like to see conducted? If you can think of any that would have any direct bearing on enlightening us in the cases then please name them and if possible I will be happy to conduct them.
Don't you know?
 
What question is it that I need to answer concerning bits of debris? You are the one proposing that they are aliens, the burden of proof is yours. Are you really theorizing that bits of debris are aliens because you can't explain each ones apparent trajectory? Or rather more accurately, you can't get anyone else to explain each one for you? If that's your case for aliens, I can't help you.
You understand the phrase inexplicable trajectory do you not? I am claiming the trajectories of the debris are inexplicable in mundane terms. I provided video evidence in support of that claim. I make no other claims whatsoever about the nature or source of the debris shown in those videos. I simply leave it to others to make such judgement calls if they so desire.

In the wider context of UFOs, I am simply curious as to how, if the debris is as you imply, mundane, how such trajectories could have been produced? Given mundane debris, then unless your are implying extraordinary (non-mundane) physical processes, you should be able to explain the mundane physical processes that produce the trajectories we see in the videos. That is your burden of proof associated with your claim of mundane debris and mundane physical processes.

My burden of proof is to show proof of my claim that the trajectories defy mundane explanation - and I contend that the video evidence does just that. If you do not believe that the video evidence supports that claim, then it is up to you to state the reasons why. I know you seem to have an inordinate amount of trouble conceptualising the “burden of proof”, but it really is quite simple:

If I make a claim I need to support that claim with evidence.
If you make a claim you need to support that claim with evidence.

My claim is anomalous trajectories and my evidence is the videos.
Your claim is mundane debris affected by mundane physical processes – but to maintain that claim you must deny the trajectory evidence contained within the videos. And of course that leads you firmly back into the “denial machine” containing the UFO debunkers who, in order to support their faith-based belief system must (irrationally) deny the evidence before them.

Why were the oil well fires misidentified? What were they originally thought to be by UFO creduloids?
It is a simple matter of human nature. The pilots and crew were keyed up by their observations of a genuine UFO to look for UFOs - and they thought they had found them in the oil well fires. It is really quite simple.

As to what the “UFO creduloids” (whoever they may be…) thought, who really cares? Their opinion does not matter. What matters in this case (and in all UFO cases) is rational, scientific exploration of, and debate surrounding, the evidence at hand – evidence that you seem singularly unwilling to engage with.
 
You were the one who said they were unrelated. I agreed with you.
Actually I stated that many UFO cases seem “disparate” and that “many different phenomena” might be contributing. That is not they same as stating (or assuming) that the cases I have been presenting are unrelated (as you did). It is entirely possible to hold my opinion (as just stated) and still not rule out that the eventual answer could see them all related – and that is why it was you who made the assumption, not I.

I stated that it was your unfounded opinion that the cases I have been presenting are “uncompelling”.
That is based on the evidence you have provided.
Once again, that is your unfounded opinion and we are entitled to question your judgement in this matter as you have already shown a willingness to deny the evidence before you in the cases I have been presenting.

I concede the point. Your evidence is merely uncompelling.
I can only reiterate that merely making unfounded assertions does not make them true.

And you've failed to convince anyone other than UFO creduloids because your evidence is uncompelling.
Second verse, same as the first… repeat.

Also because, although the burden of proof is entirely yours,…
I have explained the concept of burden of proof to you now so many times that I no longer hold hope that you will understand the conceptual foundation. Besides, merely making the unfounded assertion does not make it true… repeat.

…other people have given you reasonable explanations for the things that defied mundane explanation to you and you hand waved them away.
Merely making the unfounded assertion does not make it true… repeat.

You are shifting the burden of proof again. I will continue to point it out to you whenever you do it. I expect I'll be doing it a lot.
UFO debunkers have complained that this thread is going around in circles, but on the above evidence of your own statements it is clearly their own fault. Your complete failure to directly address the evidence at hand and your persistence in repeating unfounded assertion as if you believe that merely stating the assertion somehow makes it true means that rational debate is forestalled. I would simply ask that you make at least some attempt to direct your comments toward the evidence presented.

Gravity and evolution both have theories. What is your theory for aliens? How would it be falsifiable?
Your contention assumes that falsificationism is infallible. Falsificationism relies on observation statements but the observation statements themselves might be incorrect. We do not throw out theories just because some observations falsify that theory. Copernican theory was retained despite naked-eye observations that Venus did not change size appreciably during the year (which is inconsistent with Copernican theory), the modern conception of the trajectory of the moon is retained despite the observation that it is larger near the horizon (an illusion still not well understood), Newtonian physics is not rejected despite the repeated failure of high school physics experiments… there are many examples in science where the theory is retained despite its apparent clash with observation… My point being that you should not pin the validity of any theory to whether it is able to be falsified or not. Falsification can be a useful tool, but it has limitations and should not therefore constitute the sole reason we accept or reject a theory.

in relation to my (shortened) list of cases I have presented:
You are shifting the burden of proof here. Which do you think constitutes a best case?
Huh? I stated that what constitutes a best case is a matter of personal opinion. Some people will give more weight to certain kinds of evidence than others - and will most likely argue endlessly over what constitutes the best evidence – even while agreeing on the ultimate outcome. I stated (or strongly implied) also that I would rather not involve myself in such (potentially intractable) argument. I am merely presenting cases which I believe support my contentions in this thread and leave the value judgements to others.

If you have problems with that approach then you should explain why you do so and also posit your own position if you can. Of course if you did so (if you could), that would enable a rational debate, and it seems that is something you are desperately trying to avoid at any cost with your spurious and unfounded “burden of proof” claims (Of course you cannot even explain why you believe I am shifting the burden of proof, let alone expound upon your own position).
 
I stated:
RoboTimbo even went so far as to claim that “Satisfactory explanations have been put forward”. Yet I am still waiting for those explanations to materialise…
Please reread the entire thread then. For those specific to the debris in space, start with post #7321 on page 184.
That post (from Jocce) states:
”I am more interested in hearing you prove that it's aliens. After all, it's your claim, you have the burden of proof.”

…is that really the “satisfactory” explanation you claimed has been put forward? We obviously differ greatly on what constitutes a “satisfactory” explanation then.

The next post (also from Jocce) states:
” What? Who says it's not buring up in the earths atmoshphere?”

Perhaps that is the “satisfactory explanation” you propose has been put forward for the debris shown in the videos? No of course not… the post references a meteorite and I hardly think that “meteorite” explains the trajectories of the debris shown in the videos…

Further down Correa Neto states:
” Now, the images themselves show lots of lens flares, reflections in windows pannels froms outside and inside sources, all sorts of debris (ice, space junk, water, etc.) outside and inside the crafts, camera and film artifacts and stuff we can't possibly identify by lack of enough information.

So these are explanations for the trajectories we see in the videos? Kindly show me any evidence that such things as mentioned can produce the effects we see in the videos I have presented. Wait…let me guess… you will simply claim I am shifting the burden of proof and you will do so without ever addressing the substance of the issue at hand. And you will make such and unfounded claim because you have absolutely no evidence in support of your own position and for you to actively seek such evidence might very well end in a refutation of your own faith in your received belief system.

Can you point to any other posts that provide the “satisfactory explanations” you claim have been put forward? I ask in all sincerity. After all, you made the claim, yet you have failed to provide evidence in support of that claim – I am (generously in my opinion) providing you (yet another) opportunity to do so.

You are shifting the burden of proof here. The question is, what size and distance are they? Don't you know?
I am (again generously) allowing the UFO debunkers to propose any size and/or distance they like that might support any theory they have about the trajectories of the debris shown in the videos. It is becoming patently obvious that even with that generous lack of constraint on their (potential) theories the UFO debunkers have nothing rational to say about the trajectories shown in the videos.
 
I have been presenting a number of cases that I consider good cases - but as to which is “best” is a matter of personal opinion. These have included:

The Battle of Los Angeles (25 Feb 1942)
(http://brumac.8k.com/BATTLEOFLA/BOLA1.html)
The Rogue River Case (24 May 1949)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/Rogue/RogueRiver2.htm)
White Sands: Twinkle, Twinkle Little Craft (April-May 1950)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/WhiteSandsProof/WhiteSandsProof.html)
The Trent - McMinnville UFO (11 May 1950)
(http://brumac.8k.com/trent1.html)
Photo 1. (http://www.debunker.com/images2/Trent1_Full_400dpi.jpg)
Photo 2. (http://www.debunker.com/images2/Trent2_Full_400dpi.jpg)
The Trindade Island Photographs (16 Jan 1958)
(http://www.nicap.org/baraunadir.htm)
The Father Gill - Papua New Guinea UFO (26-28 Jun 1959)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case67.htm)
The Zamora Incident (24 Apr 1964)
(http://www.nicap.org/zamoradir.htm)
Apollo 10 (Launch 18 May 1969)
(http://history.nasa.gov/ap10fj/as10-video-library.htm - Magazine K)
Skylab 3 (Launch 28 Jul 1973)
(http://brumac.8k.com/Skylab3/SL3.html)
The Travis Walton Abduction (5 Nov 1975)
(http://www.travis-walton.com/index.shtml)
Tehran UFO Incident (19 Sep 1976)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5kT2OE1i1Q&feature=related)
(http://www.brumac.8k.com/IranJetCase/)
The New Zealand (Kaikoura) UFO sightings (31 Dec 1978)
(http://brumac.8k.com/NEW_ZEALAND/RADARUFOS.doc)
Rendlesham Forest/Bentwaters UFO Incident (25–27 Dec 1980)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/RendleshamForest.htm)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgW3vEYA-Bg&feature=player_embedded)
Val Jonhson - Minnesota Vehicle Interference and Physical Traces Event (27 Aug. 1979)
(http://ufologie.net/htm/marshallcounty79.htm)
The Cash/Landrum Incident (29 Dec 1980)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/CashLandrum1.html)
JAL Flight 1628 UFO Encounter (17 Nov 1986)
(http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/JL1628.html)
STS-48 Discovery (Launch 15 Sep 1991)
1. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1FR_1MKbGY&NR=1)
2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z-lHVB6Yuo&feature=related)
STS-71 Atlantis (Launch 27 Jun 1995)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ7EgRiU5Zo&feature=related)
Giant UFO over the Yukon Gold Fields/Indian River (1996)
(http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/22index.htm)
STS-75 Columbia (Launch 22 Feb 1996)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I)
STS-80 Columbia (Launch 19 Nov 1996)
1. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6113062&hl=en#)
2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJyuQVIFdKo)
The Campeche Incident (5 Mar 2004)
(http://brumac.8k.com/MexicanDOD5mar04/)
STS-115 Atlantis (Launch 9 Sep 2006)
1. (http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/gallery/video/shuttle/sts-115/qtime/sts115_fd01_03.mov)
2. (http://spaceflight1.nasa.gov/gallery/images/shuttle/sts-115/html/s115e07201.html)
O’Hare – Chicago International Airport UFO Sighting (7 Nov 2006)
(http://www.narcap.org/reports/010/TR10_Case_18a.pdf)

And have also provided supporting research evidence such as:

The Battelle Study (5 May 1955 - Blue Book Special Report No. 14)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/specialreport14.pdf)
The Condon Report (1968)
(http://ncas.org/condon/)
Hoyt – History and rationale behind Condon exposed (20 Apr 2000)
(http://www.narcap.org/commentary/ufocritique.pdf)
The Sturrock Panel Workshop (30 Sep – 3 Oct 1997)
(http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_1_sturrock.pdf) and (http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_08_2_sturrock.pdf)

(to name but a very few…)
Do you have an opinion as to which constitutes a “best” case?

I'm curious why do you keep just repeating the same cases that we already gave decent explanations for? Also Skeptoid has done the Travis Walter, Battle of LA, Rendlesham Forest and a few of the Apollo ones. Which I might added were easy proven not to be ALIEN because All Brian Dunning did was read out slightly more of the Transmissions of the Astronauts, then Mac attack and other UFO researchers published.

Also I added a quote marker to one of these cases. You know the one back in the day was used to show you proof that Expect witnesses are just as fallible as regular people and how you dismissed saying that UFO researchers already debunked that case. Yet went back to saying how it was two events but the UFO wasn't video taped or something Because of that Mexican TV host promoted it.
 
You were the one who said they were unrelated. I agreed with you.

That is based on the evidence you have provided.

I concede the point. Your evidence is merely uncompelling.

And you've failed to convince anyone other than UFO creduloids because your evidence is uncompelling. Also because, although the burden of proof is entirely yours, other people have given you reasonable explanations for the things that defied mundane explanation to you and you hand waved them away.


You are shifting the burden of proof again. I will continue to point it out to you whenever you do it. I expect I'll be doing it a lot.


Gravity and evolution both have theories. What is your theory for aliens? How would it be falsifiable?


You are shifting the burden of proof here. Which do you think constitutes a best case?

Why best? You couldn´t explain any of them or prove me wrong and explain any.
 
What claim? That the trajectories seem to defy mundane explanation? I would have thought that was obvious from the video evidence. My question is: What in the vacuum of space could cause the debris to behave as it does? Propose any size and any distance you like – you still must answer that basic question.

No. It is you who must answer the basic question of how you reach the conclusion that the debris behaves in a way it couldn't. However, without knowing more about the objects in the video clip, all you can do is say "it doesn't look right" which is unsatisfactory and basically an argument from ignorance.
 
You understand the phrase inexplicable trajectory do you not? I am claiming the trajectories of the debris are inexplicable in mundane terms. I provided video evidence in support of that claim. I make no other claims whatsoever about the nature or source of the debris shown in those videos. I simply leave it to others to make such judgement calls if they so desire.

In the wider context of UFOs, I am simply curious as to how, if the debris is as you imply, mundane, how such trajectories could have been produced? Given mundane debris, then unless your are implying extraordinary (non-mundane) physical processes, you should be able to explain the mundane physical processes that produce the trajectories we see in the videos. That is your burden of proof associated with your claim of mundane debris and mundane physical processes.
Nope, you're incorrect again. You are totally missing the point that I'm making no claims whatsoever. You are claiming debris is alien because you can't explain the trajectory of every last bit of it. You've been shown over and over that things that you personally can't explain still can have mundane explanations. Your refusal to acknowledge that isn't something I'll be able to help you with. This is a thread you started. Reread the OP again, you've forgotten what it said before and it had to be pointed out to you. You are the one making the claims. If your claim here is that bits of debris have trajectories that you can't imagine being mundane, I can agree with that.

My burden of proof is to show proof of my claim that the trajectories defy mundane explanation - and I contend that the video evidence does just that. If you do not believe that the video evidence supports that claim, then it is up to you to state the reasons why. I know you seem to have an inordinate amount of trouble conceptualising the “burden of proof”, but it really is quite simple:

If I make a claim I need to support that claim with evidence.
If you make a claim you need to support that claim with evidence.
No, you are incorrect again. Your burden of proof is to show they are alien. Reread your OP.

My claim is anomalous trajectories and my evidence is the videos.
Your claim is mundane debris affected by mundane physical processes – but to maintain that claim you must deny the trajectory evidence contained within the videos. And of course that leads you firmly back into the “denial machine” containing the UFO debunkers who, in order to support their faith-based belief system must (irrationally) deny the evidence before them.
No, you are incorrect again. Your claim is aliens and your evidence is a curving trajectory of a bit of debris in space. Were you going to show your work in arriving at your conclusion that it is impossible for bits of debris to have a curving trajectory?

Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for moderated thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why best? You couldn´t explain any of them or prove me wrong and explain any.

What is there to prove wrong? Have you made some claim? Do you have a theory to put forward concerning aliens? You might want to mingle with Rramjet so you can come up with a Unified Alien Theory.
 
I'm curious why do you keep just repeating the same cases that we already gave decent explanations for?
Perhaps you should have read the reason I posted that list then (that you did not does not surprise me of course…) and currently we are (or were) attempting to discuss the videos concerning the following cases (so perhaps you should have kept up with the thread also…):

STS-74 Atlantis (Launch 12 Nov 1995)
(http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-74.html)
Incident: Debri behaving unusually
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ7EgRiU5Zo&feature=related)

STS-75 Columbia (Launch 22 Feb 1996)
(http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-75.html)
Incident: The Tether Incident
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2DVeil21gc)

STS-80 Columbia (Launch 19 Nov 1996)
(http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/archives/sts-80.html)
Incident: UFOs in formation
1. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2450169839526113062&hl=en#)
2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJyuQVIFdKo)

..besides… what “decent” explanations? I have repeatedly requested those “explanations” from RoboTimbo (who made the same unfounded claim) and I am still waiting for them to materialise…

Also Skeptoid has done the Travis Walter…
The name is Travis Walton, although why anyone might expect you to actually know that is probably moot.

Skeptoid comments in conclusion about the Walton case that “…that there simply isn't any evidence either way.” (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4094) Huh! Now that’s a “decent explanation” if I ever heard one...

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…and a few of the Apollo ones…
I am afraid you will have to be more specific here. I have proposed one Apollo case (see my list post recently). Has Skeptiod “debunked” that one? Perhaps you can provide a link?

Which I might added were easy proven not to be ALIEN because All Brian Dunning did was read out slightly more of the Transmissions of the Astronauts, then Mac attack and other UFO researchers published.
This is simply an unfounded assertion with no supporting evidence and as such it is entitled to be summarily dismissed - unless of course you can provide supporting evidence for your assertions here. Besides, no-one here (as far as I know) has yet claimed any of the cases I have presented represent ET (for that is what I assume you mean by your term alien).

Also I added a quote marker to one of these cases. You know the one back in the day was used to show you proof that Expect witnesses are just as fallible as regular people and how you dismissed saying that UFO researchers already debunked that case. Yet went back to saying how it was two events but the UFO wasn't video taped or something Because of that Mexican TV host promoted it.
I think you are simply confused between cases now. Campeche (as brought back by RoboTimbo) is being discussed currently at least by me (but curiously not by him…) and there I claim the case involves both a genuine UFO and a misidentification of mundane objects.

I have also consistently maintained that eyewitnesses can be fallible. Indeed if you remember way back to the Rogue River case, I pointed out that very fallibility was able to provide important clues about the veracity of the case.

As to the “Mexican TV host” (who is best left nameless lest we invoke his spirit…) and the case of the “Mexican Alien Video” taken on mobile phone by some soccer playing teenagers - after investigation I conceded that the “Host” was gullible and that his lawyer sidekick was a charlatan. That of course says nothing about the veracity of the case itself – but of course the case was not helped by the involvement of those two characters - and at the point we left it in this thread, considering I could not speak Spanish, and that no-one in this thread who could was willing to research the case further, no conclusion was ever drawn (in this thread).
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Why best? You couldn´t explain any of them or prove me wrong and explain any.
Good point tomi71. Of course the UFO debunkers cannot explain any of the cases, so accordingly they are all "best" cases. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to actually provide plausible explanations though...
 
You understand the phrase inexplicable trajectory do you not? I am claiming the trajectories of the debris are inexplicable in mundane terms.

I provided a perfectly plausible mundane explanation, which you have subsequently ignored.
 
I am claiming the trajectories of the debris are inexplicable in mundane terms. . . .

My burden of proof is to show proof of my claim that the trajectories defy mundane explanation - and I contend that the video evidence does just that.

And here was have one of the foundations of the problem. Rramjet is making a negative claim: that is, the debris' trajectory is not mundane.

This negative cannot be turned into a positive (the debris is alien, or whatever) without some positive evidence. If it's alien, then we must first establish that these certain aliens do exist, and the debris' trajectory fits with what we know in positive terms about these aliens.

If we can't find a mundane explanation, but don't have any positive evidence as to what type of non-mundane thing it is, we have to leave it at unexplained.
I make no other claims whatsoever about the nature or source of the debris shown in those videos.

Promise?
Given mundane debris, then unless your are implying extraordinary (non-mundane) physical processes, you should be able to explain the mundane physical processes that produce the trajectories we see in the videos.

No, there is a third option - unexplained.
 
No. It is you who must answer the basic question of how you reach the conclusion that the debris behaves in a way it couldn't. However, without knowing more about the objects in the video clip, all you can do is say "it doesn't look right" which is unsatisfactory and basically an argument from ignorance.
But I have answered that question – many times. Let me reiterate:

Observation: Curved and meandering debri trajectories.

Possible explanations: External or self-motive force applied.

Discussion:
If there is an external force applied, to produce a curve in the debris trajectory, then such a force must be applied constantly over a period of time while changing direction.

The possible external sources for that force? Well, obviously there is the Shuttle – but we can see that the shuttle is not flying around in circles in order to allow its thrusters to cause a curved motion in the debri, so that rules out the shuttles thrusters as the motivation force. What are we left with?

Nothing that I can think of. Nothing that you can think of (otherwise you would have provided the explanation already). Nothing that NASA can think of (otherwise it would have provided the explanation already). So what are we left with?

Debri that is either self-motivated and therefore not mundane or mundane debri that has a non-mundane force (because there is no known source for such a force) applied to it (or a combination of both…).

Now, your argument seems to have a foundational assumption that the debri is more likely to be mundane than not (and this is the general foundation for all UFO debunker arguments) and therefore we can assume that anything “unknown” we observe will be mundane because of that likelihood (despite the fact that we cannot currently identify it). However, let us put that statistical argument into some sort of perspective. Physicists and Astronomers admit that they have absolutely no idea what makes up more than 90% of the mass of the universe. In other words most of the universe is unknown! Now… according to the UFO debunker statistical logic, that would actually make it more likely than not that any observed debri is actually unknown too…

Now in regard to your claim of argumentum ad ignorantiam: I am not claiming that I know anything about the debris except what can be observed. That is the trajectories of the debris. Moreover I am not claiming that I have proof of anything other then the debris’ trajectories. That is I am not claiming the debri is proof of ET or proposing any other hypothetical explanation for the debris at all. All I am noting is that the trajectories of the debris seem inexplicable in mundane terms and therefore it is possible that either the debris or the motivating force is non-mundane.

This of course does not rule out that advances in theoretical physics will provide a mundane answer in the future – but then that same argument can be applied to interstellar travel by potential ETs.

The end result is that the UFO debunkers cannot have it both ways. They claim that even though we cannot identify the cause of some (many) observations, the likelihood is that the cause is mundane because most of what we observe is mundane and so why should any particular observation not be mundane? But as I have just pointed out, most of the universe (the vast majority of the universe) is notknown (and therefore not mundane), so that argument from the UFO debunkers simply does not work.

The UFO debunkers also want to claim that I am somehow involved in an argumentum ad ignorantiam and that therefore my claims somehow unfairly shift the burden of proof on to them. However, I do have proof of the trajectories of the debris (the videos) and that there is no mundane explanation for those trajectories (the shuttles thrusters could not provide the necessary motivation) and I therefore simply ask the following question: Can anyone think of a plausible mundane cause?

The trajectories of the debris are thus a mystery to us and I find it odd, given the human propensity for curiosity and the urge to solve mysteries, that no-one is actually willing to research such a mystery – rather they indulge in a blanket denial that there is any mystery at all and involve themselves in semantic arguments designed to bog us down in philosophical confusions.

All I am pointing out by presenting the videos is that there is a mystery here and as the objects are “flying” and they are unidentified, that means that they are UFOs and thus fulfils the requirements of my statements in the OP that I would provide evidence for UFOs (as opposed to misidentified mundane objects).

So I will ask again: What do others make of the debris trajectories in the videos?

…and before someone replies with “Oh. but you also promised us evidence for aliens.” Let me first point out that I have presented other cases that fulfil that requirement (Father Gill and Lonnie Zamora for example) and second I did not actually state in the OP that I would provide evidence for ET (as in aliens = ET). Rather, in the OP I placed aliens in quotation marks thus: “aliens” (indicating a specific definitional requirement other than ET) and I have subsequently explained that my definition of “alien” means something outside our concepts of the natural or technological world (which could include ET but not necessarily so).
 
Nope, you're incorrect again. You are totally missing the point that I'm making no claims whatsoever. You are claiming debris is alien because you can't explain the trajectory of every last bit of it. You've been shown over and over that things that you personally can't explain still can have mundane explanations. Your refusal to acknowledge that isn't something I'll be able to help you with. This is a thread you started. Reread the OP again, you've forgotten what it said before and it had to be pointed out to you. You are the one making the claims. If your claim here is that bits of debris have trajectories that you can't imagine being mundane, I can agree with that.
Let’s forget your preamble - which I believe I have addressed in my reply to Jocce above - and concentrate on your admission that “If your claim here is that bits of debris have trajectories that you can't imagine being mundane, I can agree with that.”

Now of course you will claim that you mean that it is only me who “cannot imagine” a mundane cause – but of course you are bereft of such imagination as well. I know this because if you could imagine a mundane cause, then you would have provided one and that would have been the end of the argument. I have asked you repeatedly to provide an explanation and you even went so far as to claim that an explanation has been provided (and therefore your assertion that you make no claims is erroneous) – but interestingly you cannot provide any evidence that such an explanation exists at all.

I stated:
“If I make a claim I need to support that claim with evidence.
If you make a claim you need to support that claim with evidence.”

No, you are incorrect again. Your claim is aliens and your evidence is a curving trajectory of a bit of debris in space. Were you going to show your work in arriving at your conclusion that it is impossible for bits of debris to have a curving trajectory?
But you are simply shifting the burden of proof here. All I am providing are the observations. That is, the evidence of curving trajectories. No “work” (or calculations) are necessary to acknowledge the nature of the trajectories at all. It is an observable fact that the trajectories are curved. The work comes in an attempt to explain those curving trajectories in mundane terms – and that is something that neither you, nor I, nor anyone (nor any organisation) has so far been able to do.
 
Reworded in context

Also Skeptoid has done the Travis Walter…
The name is Travis Walton, although why anyone might expect you to actually know that is probably moot.

Skeptoid comments in conclusion about the Walton case that “…that there simply isn't any evidence either way.” (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4094) Huh! Now that’s a “decent explanation” if I ever heard one...

…Battle of LA…
Skeptiod concludes: “ The Battle of Los Angeles was triggered by true UFO's: Something spotted in the sky that nobody was able to definitively identify.” (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4171). That’s not exactly a refutation of the case either…

… Rendlesham Forest…
It seems to me that Skeptiod simply ignores most of the eyewitness testimony in critical places to conclude “Col. Halt's thoroughness was commendable, but even he can be mistaken. Without exception, everything he reported on his audiotape and in his written memo has a perfectly rational and unremarkable explanation.” (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4135) … but "can be mistaken" does not mean that he was mistaken and moreover, Skeptoid's conclusion here is of course a completely unfounded assertion. Perhaps however this is a case that should be discussed at greater length. In my opinion there is a great deal of misinformation in the Skeptoid account that needs to be set right - but of course you will not simply take me at my word on this (nor should you), so if you like we can discuss the case in more detail in the near future, as it certainly seems like no explanation of the trajectories of the debris in the above videos will be forthcoming anytime soon and thus we can put them down as more evidence of UFOs and move on.

…and a few of the Apollo ones…
I am afraid you will have to be more specific here. I have proposed one Apollo case (see my list post recently). Has Skeptiod “debunked” that one? Perhaps you can provide a link?
 
I stated:
“You understand the phrase inexplicable trajectory do you not? I am claiming the trajectories of the debris are inexplicable in mundane terms.”
I provided a perfectly plausible mundane explanation, which you have subsequently ignored.
So you say, but interestingly you have not pointed to where you provided that mundane explanation nor have you indicated what that mundane explanation was. We are thus entitled to dismiss such an assertion as unfounded.
 
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