Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Senenmut]

First of all coast tracks are on radar displays that the controller see's. The TSD does not distinquish this the same way. There is somewhere if you click on the Data Block on the TSD it will let you know if it is updating or not, but if it was last on a flight plan it will continue on the flight plan. Where as on our Radar displays it could continue on a present heading, or it may just float, but either way it stops at the end of our scopes, we call it under the rubber, the old M1 concoles had a rubber piece around the scope. At the end of the day you could expand your range to 400 NM, and you would see all of the data blocks at the end of our adaped sort boxes and they would be sitting there blinking. These were either tracks that were manually handed off to Canada that someone forgot to delete, or in the case of AAL11 no handed it off so it continued under the rubber.

Other questions, I couldn't really get much from the Dave Canoles paper work, a lot of notes scribbled. I wish I would have kept mine but they got tossed. I wish someone would interview Dave. That was the Telcon I was on, it may not have been him who told me AAL11 was still airborne but it came from his office. I beleive he had several people in his office.

As far as E-4B's taking off of ADW they squawk like everyone else, you don't sneak a B747 off ADW without anyone knowing about it. Don't know if you are aware of it but it has been going on for years, but there are bird watchers at most military bases. They sit at the end of the runways and log tail numbers of every departure, and track them. If they don't return they get online with all of their buddies and try to find where it went. It's a game for them, but it is also a way for our enemies to track the where abouts of certain aircraft. Can pretty much guarantee they are active at ADW.

thanks for your input. ive had to work alot lately and havent been able to reply.

from your expert opinion, what do you think was seen here:

He said, "Well, we have a target, bogey, on the radar, but the transponder's been turned off, so we have no identification of this aircraft. We don't know who it is. We don't know what altitude it's at, speed or anything else. All we're doing is watching with the sweep of the radar, the dot moving from position to position."

of coarse that was from mineta. from what youve said before about a coast track, would they somehow be confused, especailly since they are calling it a target/bogey? it sounds like primary radar to me. ive read that the tsd's are on a different machine so i would assume its not a tsd they are talking about.

 

[Senenmut]

The controller would expect you to turn the shorter distance or direct the turn direction. Issued a turn from 270 to 190 would be a left turn to the south. Then directed from 190 to 360 would be a right turn and J149 is north of his position and heading west. The label for the jet route J149 is at the far left on the chart above.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/Flightpathjunk.jpg[/qimg]
The path could look like this. I do not know what ATC issued verbatim, only what was posted.

you are right according to a pdf file i found. they tell sword 31 to turn left then right. its interesting that at 9:35 :30 when he stops his U and heads west again that 77 has started his loop at 9:34 :26. i bet 911 files has a GIF or something we could see both flight paths at the same time!! its almost like he moved out of the way for flight 77??

 

[Senenmut]

I asked that several pages back and I still don't see what Mineta, Cheney or any of this has to do with the OP.

in my opinion, mineta's timeline starts before the pentagon got attacked. im just wondering if cheny was ordering that e-4b (sword 31) to not engage. not a stand down but more along the lines of some COG (Continuity of government) thing. basically get that e4b out of here with whoever it is occupying. which would probably be classified and that is why mineta is being pushed aside. i remember beechnut i believe say the e4b's do not have radar themselves but rely on AWAC's. now if an AWAC or AWAC's were in the air, how the hell did they now "see" flight 77!! FOUR e4bs were suppose to be doing the wargame thing. if i remember right, steven obrien (that was flying the c130) didnt know that attacks in new york had happened. i wonder if some people that were engaged in the wargames didnt know the towers had been hit. i dont think much information has been put out even though there have been requests for this info (wargame info).

my last point is what peter jennings reported at 941, that a a plane is circling the whitehouse. i was wondering if gaffney is on to something. maybe this IS the forth e-4b. venus77 would still be on the runway. and vivi36 is accounted for and sword31 is off to the west.

does anyone know where the forth e-4b was that was suppose to be in wargames? or could this be it (the jennings plane).

also, do ya know what the e4b's were doing earlier in the day?

 

[beachnut]

... im just wondering if cheny was ordering that e-4b (sword 31) to not engage. ...

I know Cheny did not order anything on 911 save breakfast, but Cheney said, "OK men don't use your E-4B super guns on those terrorists now, stand-down!".

How does an E-4B engage the terrorists? In conversation? Ram them?
What? got some more stuff?

you are right according to a pdf file i found. they tell sword 31 to turn left then right. its interesting that at 9:35 :30 when he stops his U and heads west again that 77 has started his loop at 9:34 :26. i bet 911 files has a GIF or something we could see both flight paths at the same time!! its almost like he moved out of the way for flight 77??

I have flown as a pilot since I was a kid in college, 1973. ... you gave me the flight path, "left out" left and right, but the shorter direction is the most likely turn direction.

I was on active duty, active flight status on 911 and there was no stand-down command on 911. All military personnel would have reported stand-down orders the second they occurred; the stand-down and do not engage crap is nonsense.

When some idiot is flying with his transponder off or on and they are being tracked, ATC vectors traffic around the UNKNOWN IDIOT so planes do not collide and crash on SHOPPING MALLS.

If Flight 77 is in the way (idiots off their flight plan, the murderers you seem to be apologizing for) ATC vectors other aircraft around the dolts you make excuses for.

If it was 77 in the way it is not INTERESTING, it is PROCEDURE to keep planes from hitting other planes!

 

[Senenmut]

This doesn't sounf right to me, up until the second tower was hit we really didn't have a clue it was a terrorist act, why would have a ground stop been issued before the second tower was hit? Also you state that Mineta made not much time later. if Sliney made the ground stop before the 2nd Tower, and Mineta made the call shortly later, define shortly? 50 minutes later isn't shortly.

From what I remember that day our ground stop went out within about two minutes or less after the 2nd Tower was hit. I belive Terry Biggio made the call to ground stop before he got a call from Sliney or they talked and did it at the same time.

thats just what i read from his notes about the groundstops(on page 5 of 12). here they are.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13723762/...iney-52104-Fdr-Handwritten-Interview-Notes185

he also wrote in "aal 11 rebirth" on page 7? so maybe there is more to the story since he is the second guy i have seen write something in about the rebirth of 11.

 

[Senenmut]

I know Cheny did not order anything on 911 save breakfast, but Cheney said, "OK men don't use your E-4B super guns on those terrorists now, stand-down!".

How does an E-4B engage the terrorists? In conversation? Ram them?
What? got some more stuff?



I have flown as a pilot since I was a kid in college, 1973. ... you gave me the flight path, "left out" left and right, but the shorter direction is the most likely turn direction.

I was on active duty, active flight status on 911 and there was no stand-down command on 911. All military personnel would have reported stand-down orders the second they occurred; the stand-down and do not engage crap is nonsense.

When some idiot is flying with his transponder off or on and they are being tracked, ATC vectors traffic around the UNKNOWN IDIOT so planes do not collide and crash on SHOPPING MALLS.

If Flight 77 is in the way (idiots off their flight plan, the murderers you seem to be apologizing for) ATC vectors other aircraft around the dolts you make excuses for.

If it was 77 in the way it is not INTERESTING, it is PROCEDURE to keep planes from hitting other planes!

from the vanity fair article:

"At what feels on the tapes like the moment of truth, what comes back down the chain of command, instead of clearance to fire, is a resounding sense of caution. Despite the fact that neads believes there may be as many as five suspected hijacked aircraft still in the air at this point—one from Canada, the new one bearing down fast on Washington, the phantom American 11, Delta 1989, and United 93—the answer to Nasypany's question about rules of engagement comes back in no uncertain terms, as you hear him relay to the ops floor."

10:10:31
NASYPANY (to floor): Negative. Negative clearance to shoot.… Godda_mit!…
FOX: I'm not really worried about code words at this point.
NASYPANY: F_ck the code words. That's perishable information. Negative clearance to fire. ID. Type. Tail.

then:
"President Bush would finally grant commanders the authority to give that order at 10:18, which—though no one knew it at the time—was 15 minutes after the attack was over."

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true&currentPage=10

 

[carlitos]

Senenmut, really. What is your point? What is supposed to be the 'more to the story?' Do you have a theory about this or what?

 

[beachnut]

from the vanity fair article:

"At what feels on the tapes like the moment of truth, what comes back down the chain of command, instead of clearance to fire, is a resounding sense of caution. Despite the fact that neads believes there may be as many as five suspected hijacked aircraft still in the air at this point—one from Canada, the new one bearing down fast on Washington, the phantom American 11, Delta 1989, and United 93—the answer to Nasypany's question about rules of engagement comes back in no uncertain terms, as you hear him relay to the ops floor."

10:10:31
NASYPANY (to floor): Negative. Negative clearance to shoot.… Godda_mit!…
FOX: I'm not really worried about code words at this point.
NASYPANY: F_ck the code words. That's perishable information. Negative clearance to fire. ID. Type. Tail.

then:
"President Bush would finally grant commanders the authority to give that order at 10:18, which—though no one knew it at the time—was 15 minutes after the attack was over."

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608?printable=true&currentPage=10

There was no stand-down, there were no targets to shoot at. Not a single fighter closed or locked up any flights with terrorists on board.

The vanity fair article is great if you like after the fact tripe about people in impossible situation. The article confirms terrorists did 911 while you try to say terrorists did not do 911. You fail at each turn due to ignorance of flying procedures, reality, and an inability to take real evidence and form rational conclusions.

I don't need permission to shoot down a plane.
I promised, I took an oath, I can act to defend the United State, I was on active duty on 911 and could take action. Who gave the Passengers on Flight 93 the permission to attack the terrorists you defend so poorly?

"I" do solemnly swear /// that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States /// against all enemies, foreign and domestic /// that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same /// that I take this obligation freely /// without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion /// and that I will well and faithfully discharge /// the duties of the office which I am about to enter /// so help me God.

Me, a government loyalist, with those who fought with Washington, believe in Jefferson and Franklin, and respect Lincoln are with me; the 911 truth movement is composed of snake-oil salesmen fraud and cult like followers unable to think for themselves.

Who was the dumb pilot asking permission. But who could be sure which plane to stop? I would say positive ID of bad guys in the cockpit could be simplified by the idiots who look like the 19 dolts you apologize for weakly and without any mental reservation.

What is your point, your conclusion; what are you trying to say?

Have you found some guns on an E-4B yet? Maybe you think a F-117 could shoot down a terrorist plane?

What did you mean Cheney made the E-4 not engage? How does an E-4 engage another aircraft?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Maybe they had some of those NWO "Pods" installed...

 

[funk de fino]

in my opinion, mineta's timeline starts before the pentagon got attacked.

I will repeat as you seem to be avoiding it.

Did Mineta state that Mrs Cheney was with Dick in the PEOC when he arrived?

Yes or no will do.

 

[MikeW]

Dear, oh dear. Truthers still relying on the Mineta timeline. Which basically means assuming his 9:20 is more or less correct, hopefully interpreting Clarke's timeline, and then talking about Cheney a lot.

Unfortunately, he didn't reach the PEOC until after the Pentagon hit, and so the "do the orders still stand" conversion didn't take place until long afterwards. The evidence for that is clear, and all truthers desperate pretending won't make this unfortunate reality go away.

 

[Senenmut]

page 6 of 18
ss wh 911 declassified
http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy

0933 - the group entered the PEOC at which time information flow to the vice president and staff began.

 

[MikeW]

page 6 of 18
ss wh 911 declassified
http://www.mediafire.com/?vydb4nxdmyy

0933 - the group entered the PEOC at which time information flow to the vice president and staff began.

Four problems with this, for you at least.

#1, if you want to tell us this is fact then it shows Cheney didn't arrive in the PEOC until 9:33, neatly debunking Mineta's claim that he was there before 9:20.

#2, the group contained Carl Truscott. What you've failed to mention is, on page 4 of this document, another version of the timeline has Truscott saying he didn't leave for the shelter until after 9:43. A contradiction. So which version is correct?

#3, Mineta isn't mentioned as a part of "the group" in the first version anyway. If this is because he arrived later, as the evidence shows, then this also means his timeline is incorrect.

And #4, page 8 of this document has the account of how Mrs Cheney got to the PEOC, after the Pentagon crash, and according to Mineta, before he did.

So, best case for you is that you've one version of events that puts Cheney in the PEOC proper earlier than the 9/11 Commission said. There's nothing here to support Mineta's account, though - only further indications that it's incorrect.

 

[Senenmut]

>shrug< - most truthers have yet to even acknowledge the existence of the first document referring to logs of Mineta's arrival time, which I pointed out in February 2009:

[qimg]http://911myths.com/images/thumb/c/cd/Mineta_peoc.png/600px-Mineta_peoc.png[/qimg]
(hotlinked from my own site)

So if anyone has significant site updates to make, I really don't think it's me.

so what your trying to say is that even though norman mineta decided to bring everything down about 945, he wasnt even at the peoc and wasnt aware of the crash into the pentagon?

from the monte belger fiel:

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M.

 

[MikeW]

so what your trying to say is that even though norman mineta decided to bring everything down about 945, he wasnt even at the peoc and wasnt aware of the crash into the pentagon?

Not what I'm saying, Senenmut - it's the evidence. You just provided in your previous document multiple sources showing that Mineta's timeline is incorrect.

He tells us again, himself: the White House was being evacuated when he arrived, everyone was running out and being moved over to Lafayette park. For Mineta to be correct that must have happened a few minutes before 9:15: there's not a single source anywhere that puts these events before the Pentagon crash (even the truther's beloved CNN account of an earlier evacuation).

He tells us, again, in one of his interviews: Garvey called before he left the office to tell him that Delta Airlines had warned that they couldn't account for all of their planes. Garvey tells Lynn Spencer this only happened after the Pentagon crash, so: Mineta was still in his office when the Pentagon was hit.

He tells us again, by placing Lynn Cheney in the PEOC at his arrival when everything else says she only got there after the Pentagon crash, including your own source.

Clarke tells us indirectly by saying Mineta hasn't arrived when he talks to Jane Garvey on the video conference. This needs to be at around 9:13 or even earlier for Mineta's 9:20 PEOC arrival to work, but a) there was no time for Garvey to get back to the office and be briefed on what was going on, and b) Clarke says she told him things that hadn't been confirmed that early, like identifying Flight 77, and c) Clarke's account clearly shows this took place later as, for example, he says the FAA had lost Mineta, didn't know where he was: makes no sense at all if Garvey was in his office only 10 minutes earlier, and had called him about Delta Airlines as well.

And there are plenty more, which...

from the monte belger fiel:

...you don't invalidate by trying to find other "anomalies". In this case, for instance, we know Mineta didn't give the order to bring down all the planes. Even Belger told the 9/11 Commission that (http://911myths.com/index.php/Mineta#Order_everyone_to_land). Mineta was told about it later.

So if you want to show Mineta is correct, then you actually have to tackle all the evidence that shows he is not. Start with the evacuation. When was everyone running out and being moved over to Lafayette park, for instance, as Mineta described? If this happened pre-9:15 then I think someone would have noticed. So go find them. Good luck!

 

[Senenmut]

mikew-
from your link-
sliney- "As to the order to land, that was the product of the men and women in the Command Center who gave me advice on that day, the supervisors and the specialists. We were searching for something more to do, and that was made and decided on, and the impetus for that of course was the crash into the Pentagon when we gave that order."

from the beler interview-

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented.

sounds about right!!

mineta -
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.
But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon.
Well, its like anything else, if you see one of something occur you consider that an accident. But when you see two of the same thing occur then you know that there is a pattern or a trend. In this instant we had three of the same thing occur, and that is a program or a plan. So I then informed the FAA to bring all the airplanes down.

makes perfect sense!

 

[MikeW]

makes perfect sense!

As I said, the reality is that Mineta tells us clearly when he arrived: during the White House evacuation.

There's no ambiguity in that. No interpretation. No "matter of opinion", no bias. He describes everyone running out from the White House and Executive Office buildings and running over to Lafayette park, which all sources - all of them - say happened after the Pentagon attack.

And your response to these facts is... guessing and assumption. You simply repeat Mineta's:

"someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon"

...assuming it occurred right after the Pentagon was hit. But other accounts say there was much confusion immediately after the attack, and confirmation didn't come until the incident with the projected track of Flight 93, some time after 10 o'clock: Oh dear, yet another occasion when Mineta's timeline contradicts others...

 

[Senenmut]

As I said, the reality is that Mineta tells us clearly when he arrived: during the White House evacuation.

page 6-
0926 EEOB evacuation was initiated by OA staff and all personnel were departin the buildin in an orderly but expeditious fashion.

then on page 10
i then told....whom i assumed to be in the JOc by this time, to initite the Emerency Evacuation Plan. .......
I heard ... on then phone at his desk, acknowledin that we were activating the emerency evacuation plan.

then later down in the document, it states that the hijacked plane was approximately 5 minutes out of d.c which would put it around the above time of 0926 from pae 6. so it sounds like the eeob and members from the eeob that were in the whitehouse were evacuating.

There's no ambiguity in that. No interpretation. No "matter of opinion", no bias. He describes everyone running out from the White House and Executive Office buildings and running over to Lafayette park, which all sources - all of them - say happened after the Pentagon attack.

yep. read page 10.

And your response to these facts is... guessing and assumption. You simply repeat Mineta's:

"someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon"

...assuming it occurred right after the Pentagon was hit. But other accounts say there was much confusion immediately after the attack, and confirmation didn't come until the incident with the projected track of Flight 93, some time after 10 o'clock: Oh dear, yet another occasion when Mineta's timeline contradicts others...

i think gumboot wanted that "projected track" to be a TSD track. anyway, im not just repeating mineta's testimony but also sliney's and belger's. it makes logical sense.

fyi- GOFER06 reported that the unknown aircraft had crashed into the western side of the pentagon at 0938.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf

read page 29.....read about who the faa was on the phone with!!

 

[MikeW]

page 6-
0926 EEOB evacuation was initiated by OA staff and all personnel were departin the buildin in an orderly but expeditious fashion.

As I mentioned earlier, Mineta said the evacuation was occurring as he drove up. He then had to a) get through security, b) get to the situation room, c) spend 4 or 5 minutes with Clarke, and d) get to the PEOC.

So, Mineta has the evacuation occurring at, what, 9:13 or earlier.

Meanwhile, the document you refer to has one timeline saying evacuation was initiated at 9:26, another after 9:43. You ignore the second time because it's inconvenient, and pick the first one instead, but the reality is that both show Mineta was clearly wrong.

...so it sounds like....

As I said, we don't have to interpret anything. Mineta and the evidence tells us when he arrived. You're simply pretending it doesn't exist. Unfortunately it does, and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make your case any more convincing.

fyi- GOFER06 reported that the unknown aircraft had crashed into the western side of the pentagon at 0938.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa7.pdf

read page 29.....read about who the faa was on the phone with!!

So know you have to make another assumption, that the GOFER06 statement somehow magically immediately made its way to the PEOC.

Then you're guessing that the positional update was the one Mineta heard.

And yet nothing here says where Mineta was, and your own sources show his timeline is incorrect.

Anyway, as you're not refuting evidence, just saying "yes but" and making more hopeful guesses and assumptions, there's really no point continuing. There's more Mineta-related points that truthers ignore on this page, if anyone's interested, otherwise I'll leave you to it.

 

[Senenmut]

As I mentioned earlier, Mineta said the evacuation was occurring as he drove up. He then had to a) get through security, b) get to the situation room, c) spend 4 or 5 minutes with Clarke, and d) get to the PEOC.

So, Mineta has the evacuation occurring at, what, 9:13 or earlier.

Meanwhile, the document you refer to has one timeline saying evacuation was initiated at 9:26, another after 9:43. You ignore the second time because it's inconvenient, and pick the first one instead, but the reality is that both show Mineta was clearly wrong.

the 0943 says the white house was being evacuated, not when they intiated the emergeny evacuation. so it was already going on when they stuck this 0943 time into the doc.

As I said, we don't have to interpret anything. Mineta and the evidence tells us when he arrived. You're simply pretending it doesn't exist. Unfortunately it does, and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make your case any more convincing.

and your simply pretending that sliney's interview and belger's interview do not exist!

sliney- "As to the order to land, that was the product of the men and women in the Command Center who gave me advice on that day, the supervisors and the specialists. We were searching for something more to do, and that was made and decided on, and the impetus for that of course was the crash into the Pentagon when we gave that order."

that order was about 0945

from the belger interview-

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented.

So know you have to make another assumption, that the GOFER06 statement somehow magically immediately made its way to the PEOC.

they were talking to the white house secret service.....use your own brain. if you want to believe beleger and sliney (and even mineta, if you want him out of the peoc at this time, from belger's interview) knew of the crash before anyone in the peoc!!!

And yet nothing here says where Mineta was, and your own sources show his timeline is incorrect.

it makes a hell of alot more sense when looking at sliney and belger's interviews that mineta knew about the pentagon about 0945. it would make ZERO sense that mineta would know about the pentagon at 0945 and already bring the planes down and only then to enter the PEOC at 10.

Anyway, as you're not refuting evidence, just saying "yes but" and making more hopeful guesses and assumptions, there's really no point continuing. There's more Mineta-related points that truthers ignore on this page, if anyone's interested, otherwise I'll leave you to it.

im not saying yes but..... im saying look at these interviews-

sliney- "As to the order to land, that was the product of the men and women in the Command Center who gave me advice on that day, the supervisors and the specialists. We were searching for something more to do, and that was made and decided on, and the impetus for that of course was the crash into the Pentagon when we gave that order."

that order was about 0945

from the belger interview-

Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented.

imo, mineta got to the peoc about 0930. that way when the plane was 50 miles out, it would have taken about 5 mins to make it to the pentagon and then two more mins for the loop de loop. that would make it 0937. then from there, they learn of the explosion and then the crash. by then its 0945 and the order to land all planes is given.