Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Senenmut]

Before Mineta then? People were running when Mineta arrived.

Please explain how Mineta saw Mrs Cheney with Dastardly Dick when he arrived if she was there after the crash of 77?

try reading one of my posts again.

we have the explosion and the confirmation right here.
http://www.dailycal.org/printable.php?id=8072

heres a good interview from mineta-
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon."

just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

maybe even watch this clip of norman mineta if ya havent seen it. there is a space of time between the 10 mile out story and at 1030ish mineta states that is when they were informed about flight 93. there is a logical flow to minetas timeline. your trying to tell me that at 1040 is when the 10 mile out story took place. does not make since!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suKKhDWbnSk

 

[Senenmut]

If you have a copy of Mark's book, I generated an RS3 plot for the book. If not, buy a copy.

is this 911 files? how have ya been....if it is. anyway, from what im reading, its from the washington national tower TYSON departure control position.

im trying to figure out what kind of manuever this guy did.
it says word31 was traveling 270 then at 1330 he was issued to 190 then about 1 1/2 min later, got issued 360. then 3 1/2 mins later issued to join j149.

i think i got this pdf off of aa77.com. that would place him close to the pentagon when he got issued to turn south then north.

what would that south then north heading look like?

 

[BCR]

Then you should have the flight plan info. All of what you describe is in the flight plan (except perhaps a minor detour for traffic) straight to Offutt.

 

[beachnut]

is this 911 files? how have ya been....if it is. anyway, from what im reading, its from the washington national tower TYSON departure control position.

im trying to figure out what kind of manuever this guy did.
it says word31 was traveling 270 then at 1330 he was issued to 190 then about 1 1/2 min later, got issued 360. then 3 1/2 mins later issued to join j149.

i think i got this pdf off of aa77.com. that would place him close to the pentagon when he got issued to turn south then north.

what would that south then north heading look like?

Why does it matter? He was over 3,000 feet. He flew west (MAGNETIC!) then turned left 80 degrees to 190 degrees (like south plus 10 magnetic) then he turned right 170 degrees to 360 degrees (north) then to intercept J149. Looks like he never flew around the Pentagon, but he did fly near in a relative way. Why does it matter? Why is Mineta and a E-4 connected? Is the Mineta stuff off topic?

Andrews is on the right, J149 goes out the left; this kind of pilot junk discussion is one method of birth control. What does Mineta have to do with an E-4?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

im trying to figure out what kind of manuever this guy did.
it says word31 was traveling 270 then at 1330 he was issued to 190 then about 1 1/2 min later, got issued 360. then 3 1/2 mins later issued to join j149.

i think i got this pdf off of aa77.com. that would place him close to the pentagon when he got issued to turn south then north.

what would that south then north heading look like?

Without having the turn right or turn left added to those headings it was either all over the sky roughly heading west or it was a holding pattern. If you assume that the headings were the most direct route then it was all over the place but if you assume that the turns were the long way around to the next heading it forms a sloppy figure 8 holding pattern.

So turning right to 190 from 270 makes the top half of the eight and turning left to 360 from 190 makes up the 3/4 of the bottom half of the eight.

 

[beachnut]

Without having the turn right or turn left added to those headings it was either all over the sky roughly heading west or it was a holding pattern. If you assume that the headings were the most direct route then it was all over the place but if you assume that the turns were the long way around to the next heading it forms a sloppy figure 8 holding pattern.

So turning right to 190 from 270 makes the top half of the eight and turning left to 360 from 190 makes up the 3/4 of the bottom half of the eight.

The controller would expect you to turn the shorter distance or direct the turn direction. Issued a turn from 270 to 190 would be a left turn to the south. Then directed from 190 to 360 would be a right turn and J149 is north of his position and heading west. The label for the jet route J149 is at the far left on the chart above.

The path could look like this. I do not know what ATC issued verbatim, only what was posted.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I don't know what the procedures are for aircraft, I only know what they are for submarines and there's always a left or right (full or some degree less than full) rudder order followed by a heading. I assumed that it would be the same for an aircraft. My mistake.

Just for clarification I saw it as possibly something like this:

Or this:

 

[beachnut]

I don't know what the procedures are for aircraft, I only know what they are for submarines and there's always a left or right (full or some degree less than full) rudder order followed by a heading. I assumed that it would be the same for an aircraft. My mistake.

You did not make a mistake. ATC could have said turn right to 190, and left to 360. Usually the turns are made the shorter direction. The left turn would not be likely for leaving west from Andrews, there is restricted airspace that direction. Since their goal was to go west, if ATC issued the right to 190 and then a left to 360 I would be upset we are going the wrong direction. I assumed it was left to 190 and right to 360. And I am opting to drink some wine instead of researching it further, but you are right it would be Beachnut 11 turn left to 190... beachnut 11 turn right to 360... Beachnut 11 cleared to intercept J149 contact... Or was it right and left. You are right, most likely ATC preceded the heading with turn left or right.

 

[tsig]

the thing is, your telling me mineta could not have been there before the "official evacuation" because he stated people were running. and the article i linked shows that the whitehouse was "slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago" which would put it at about 920ish. now lynn cheney comes in and says that people were going in the direction in a rather "calm" way.
your telling me she arrived when it was being evacuated but she describes it as being calm?? and the way she describes the whole "the plane is 60 miles out" scenario is totally different and time wise different than minetas.

None of this he said/she said answers the dead people.

 

[MikeW]

the thing is, your telling me mineta could not have been there before the "official evacuation" because he stated people were running.

Not just that, no. There are four points of similarity: he said people were running, he said everyone was coming out, he said they were coming from the White House and the Executive Office Building, he said they were moving over to Lafayette Park. You're minimising the similarities because you want to pass this off as a "coincidence", but it's not going to work. No-one describes this scene as happening until after the Pentagon was hit.

and the article i linked shows that the whitehouse was "slowing evacuating the White House about 30 minutes ago" which would put it at about 920ish. now lynn cheney comes in and says that people were going in the direction in a rather "calm" way.

your telling me she arrived when it was being evacuated but she describes it as being calm?? and the way she describes the whole "the plane is 60 miles out" scenario is totally different and time wise different than minetas.

Your earlier source - the CNN report - described all four points Mineta mentioned - lots of people, Executive Office Building, running, moving over to Lafayette Park. These were occurring at 9:52. No-one, absolutely no-one says they happened before the Pentagon was hit, and in fact we have reports that say they didn't (everything was normal until then).

Lynne Cheney now says "calm" instead of "running". So what? Maybe she arrived from a different direction. Maybe she arrived three minutes later. Cheney's account doesn't change Mineta's accurate description of the evacuation scene - he's already told us when he arrived. And they're both clearly describing events after the Pentagon was hit.

 

[gumboot]

Not just that, no. There are four points of similarity: he said people were running, he said everyone was coming out, he said they were coming from the White House and the Executive Office Building, he said they were moving over to Lafayette Park. You're minimising the similarities because you want to pass this off as a "coincidence", but it's not going to work. No-one describes this scene as happening until after the Pentagon was hit.

Your earlier source - the CNN report - described all four points Mineta mentioned - lots of people, Executive Office Building, running, moving over to Lafayette Park. These were occurring at 9:52. No-one, absolutely no-one says they happened before the Pentagon was hit, and in fact we have reports that say they didn't (everything was normal until then).

Lynne Cheney now says "calm" instead of "running". So what? Maybe she arrived from a different direction. Maybe she arrived three minutes later. Cheney's account doesn't change Mineta's accurate description of the evacuation scene - he's already told us when he arrived. And they're both clearly describing events after the Pentagon was hit.

Mike, there's no real need to debate. Even his source agrees on the time for the evac, it's just Truthers can't seem to distinguish between ET and EDT. They forget to add an hour to the CNN report time. Kind of reminds me of the Payne learjet incident...

 

[funk de fino]

try reading one of my posts again.

we have the explosion and the confirmation right here.
http://www.dailycal.org/printable.php?id=8072

heres a good interview from mineta-
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon."

just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

maybe even watch this clip of norman mineta if ya havent seen it. there is a space of time between the 10 mile out story and at 1030ish mineta states that is when they were informed about flight 93. there is a logical flow to minetas timeline. your trying to tell me that at 1040 is when the 10 mile out story took place. does not make since!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suKKhDWbnSk

Stop avoiding the point. Mineta says that he saw Lynne Cheney with dick when he arrived. She was already there, this is in his own interview. She was only evacuated to the PEOC after Flight 77 crashed. She arrived when they were evacuating due to Flight 77. Mineta was not there at this point.
It is simple logic. You are avoiding the issue. I suspect it is for dishonest reasons as no-one can be as dumb as to still think Mineta times are correct after all the posts in this thread. You keep moving to irrelevant crap. The coast track is what the discussion was about. Belger says he did not know about Flight 93 until after it crashed. All they knew about was a coast track that was heading to DC. This was after flight 77 had already crashed which was not a coast track. The controllers were tracking it on radar. They watched it turn around and dissappear over the Pentagon. Read their statements, its all in there.

 

[MikeW]

Mike, there's no real need to debate. Even his source agrees on the time for the evac, it's just Truthers can't seem to distinguish between ET and EDT. They forget to add an hour to the CNN report time. Kind of reminds me of the Payne learjet incident...

I agree on the debating point, I've said all that's necessary I think & if not then there are plenty of other people to take care of things.

Re: ET and EDT, though, I'm no expert on US time zone protocols but I don't think there's any need to add an hour here - the times quoted in the CNN transcripts are correct. For example, we know CNN were reporting the first WTC crash within minutes, and sure enough the first transcript shows a time of 8:48 ET. Likewise the main evacuation report times (from CNN) were at 9:45 and 9:52 which matches with other reports: adding an hour would throw them out.

 

[BCR]

The controller would expect you to turn the shorter distance or direct the turn direction. Issued a turn from 270 to 190 would be a left turn to the south. Then directed from 190 to 360 would be a right turn and J149 is north of his position and heading west. The label for the jet route J149 is at the far left on the chart above.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/Flightpathjunk.jpg[/qimg]
The path could look like this. I do not know what ATC issued verbatim, only what was posted.

Here is an image with the flight strip and RADES path. Of course it matches pretty much what you said.

WORD 31

 

[Senenmut]

Stop avoiding the point. Mineta says that he saw Lynne Cheney with dick when he arrived. She was already there, this is in his own interview. She was only evacuated to the PEOC after Flight 77 crashed. She arrived when they were evacuating due to Flight 77. Mineta was not there at this point.
It is simple logic. You are avoiding the issue. I suspect it is for dishonest reasons as no-one can be as dumb as to still think Mineta times are correct after all the posts in this thread. You keep moving to irrelevant crap. The coast track is what the discussion was about. Belger says he did not know about Flight 93 until after it crashed. All they knew about was a coast track that was heading to DC. This was after flight 77 had already crashed which was not a coast track. The controllers were tracking it on radar. They watched it turn around and dissappear over the Pentagon. Read their statements, its all in there.

if ya want to believe lynn cheney and her "right wing" self.

mabe ya need to read this again, youll see an explosion and a confirmaion!!
mineta:
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon."

just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

 

[funk de fino]

if ya want to believe lynn cheney and her "right wing" self.

mabe ya need to read this again, youll see an explosion and a confirmaion!!
mineta:
"Then they came in and said it was 10 miles out. Soon after that, I was talking to the deputy director of the FAA, and he told me they had lost the target off the screen. Soon after that, then, the vice president was informed that there was an explosion at the Pentagon. So I was trying to relate with the air traffic controllers where that plane went to see whether it was close to the Pentagon. The radar is very difficult to pinpoint it to a ground location.

But while I was talking to the FAA, someone broke into the conversation and said, 'Mr. Secretary, we have just had confirmation from the Arlington County Police Department that they saw a commercial airliner-an American airline-go into the Pentagon."

just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

Lets take this nice and easy without your political bias shall we?

Did Mineta say that Lynn Cheney was with Dick when he arrived?

PS - Why wont you read the controllers statements?

 

[beachnut]

Here is an image with the flight strip and RADES path. Of course it matches pretty much what you said.

WORD 31

It looks better than my word art. Thanks for the flight path.

if... just think about gofer06 and check out the wikileaks and see for yourself how it would be hard to believe that the peoc would not of had confirmation for 40 mins after the fact.

Why would it not take 40 minutes for the police in the field to make up channel reports that make it to some magical not used a lot peoc! The command post is always the last to know and the first to make stupid commands based on crap. They are not witnesses in the peoc, they are getting information third hand. It could take an hour to figure out what hit the Pentagon. You have to interview people and it takes days to get the confirmation of RADAR tapes, days to decode the FDR, etc. 40 minutes for information making to some basement command post! Who cares; it will not change 19 terrorists killing people on 911 and it has you unable to act or figure out 911 for 8 years.

 

[gumboot]

I doubt informing the PEOC was very high in anyone's priorities that day. Everyone was a bit preoccupied with more important things.

 

[Senenmut]

Stop avoiding the point. Mineta says that he saw Lynne Cheney with dick when he arrived. She was already there, this is in his own interview. She was only evacuated to the PEOC after Flight 77 crashed. She arrived when they were evacuating due to Flight 77. Mineta was not there at this point.
It is simple logic. You are avoiding the issue. I suspect it is for dishonest reasons as no-one can be as dumb as to still think Mineta times are correct after all the posts in this thread. You keep moving to irrelevant crap. The coast track is what the discussion was about. Belger says he did not know about Flight 93 until after it crashed. All they knew about was a coast track that was heading to DC. This was after flight 77 had already crashed which was not a coast track. The controllers were tracking it on radar. They watched it turn around and dissappear over the Pentagon. Read their statements, its all in there.

coast track? are ya sure about that. remember what cheapshot said. coast tracks are easily identifiable. he called it a target/bogey. they would have known it was a coast track.


plus check out what monte has to say:
" Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and
Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down
(around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it
executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M."
http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00054.pdf

so now i guess youll say mineta was just driving down the road on his cell phone on his was to the white house and spoke with monte to bring everything down (around 945). and if he talked with monte already (before 945) and monte already knew the pentagon was hit mineta would have known about the pentagon as well.

minetas timeline makes since. your timeline does NOT. do you think a women would cover for her husband? especially a "right wing" women with the same ideals that her husband has.

think OFFICE OF SPECIAL PLANS.

 

[Senenmut]

I doubt informing the PEOC was very high in anyone's priorities that day. Everyone was a bit preoccupied with more important things.

????????????? WHAT!! your kidding right?