Merged E-4B flying around pentagon / Norman Mineta timeline

[Senenmut]

It looks better than my word art. Thanks for the flight path.



Why would it not take 40 minutes for the police in the field to make up channel reports that make it to some magical not used a lot peoc! The command post is always the last to know and the first to make stupid commands based on crap. They are not witnesses in the peoc, they are getting information third hand. It could take an hour to figure out what hit the Pentagon. You have to interview people and it takes days to get the confirmation of RADAR tapes, days to decode the FDR, etc. 40 minutes for information making to some basement command post! Who cares; it will not change 19 terrorists killing people on 911 and it has you unable to act or figure out 911 for 8 years.

did ya check out wikileaks. it just took a few mins for a confirmation...and gofer06 had a visual confirmation.

 

[DGM]

????????????? WHAT!! your kidding right?

For the most part wouldn't people be more occupied with making sure plans that were well established being implemented then contacting the PEOC especially considering the POTUS was not there?

 

[Senenmut]

Lets take this nice and easy without your political bias shall we?

Did Mineta say that Lynn Cheney was with Dick when he arrived?

PS - Why wont you read the controllers statements?

my political bias? thats the way clarke describes her:

But Army Major Mike Fenzel, who is also in the PEOC, complains to him, “I can’t hear the crisis conference [that Clarke has been leading] because Mrs. Cheney keeps turning down the volume on you so she can hear CNN… and the vice president keeps hanging up the open line to you.” Clarke later describes that Lynne Cheney is, like her husband, “a right-wing ideologue,” and is offering her advice and opinions while in the PEOC.

 

[funk de fino]

my political bias? thats the way clarke describes her:

But Army Major Mike Fenzel, who is also in the PEOC, complains to him, “I can’t hear the crisis conference [that Clarke has been leading] because Mrs. Cheney keeps turning down the volume on you so she can hear CNN… and the vice president keeps hanging up the open line to you.” Clarke later describes that Lynne Cheney is, like her husband, “a right-wing ideologue,” and is offering her advice and opinions while in the PEOC.

Try again.

Did Mineta say in his interview that she was with Dick when he arrived?

 

[funk de fino]

coast track? are ya sure about that. remember what cheapshot said. coast tracks are easily identifiable. he called it a target/bogey. they would have known it was a coast track.

Now you really are being dense. the controllers could see the coast track. It was all they had for the second plane heading to DC. The first radar return that they saw was for 77. This was a real radar track. Neither of the tracks could be seen by Belger or Mineta. Only the controllers could see them. They were shouting the coast track over the phone and this was being relayd to the PEOC. Flight 77 had crashed prior to this.

plus check out what monte has to say:
" Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and
Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down
(around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it
executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M."
http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00054.pdf

so now i guess youll say mineta was just driving down the road on his cell phone on his was to the white house and spoke with monte to bring everything down (around 945). and if he talked with monte already (before 945) and monte already knew the pentagon was hit mineta would have known about the pentagon as well.

minetas timeline makes since. your timeline does NOT. do you think a women would cover for her husband? especially a "right wing" women with the same ideals that her husband has.

think OFFICE OF SPECIAL PLANS.

Dumb and dumber. You missed the " around" 09:45.

 

[MikeW]

You missed the " around" 09:45.

I'm not getting back into this fully, but just an addition to your point... You've mentioned Belger, so what does Garvey say? Let's see:

After the fourth crash, the challenge was to determine what to do about the national airspace. Sec. Mineta and John Flaherty had left by this time to go to the White House, but were still in communication with the FAA. Belger told Ms. Garvey that Boston and New York ATC had already instituted a ground stop, and Garvey indicated to the Commission that she felt that this was a case of the controllers themselves taking the proper action and that part of the response worked well. At that point, Garvey and Belger felt that they needed to get the Secretary more into the decision-making loop. Mineta then called, and Belger expressed the view that the FAA needed to bring all of the planes down. After conferring with Vice President Cheney, Mineta ordered that action.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18775656/...r-102103-Jane-Garvey-Interview-w-Notes-on-MFR

This isn't perfect: the real "bring the planes down" order was delivered by Sliney, earlier. Garvey does seem to think Mineta wasn't in the "decision-making loop", though, suggesting he'd been out of touch for a while (something Clarke also said) not on the phone since 9:20-ish; and she says he didn't call in until after the Flight 93 crash, which agrees with the PEOC shelter log and the Slate article I posted earlier.

 

[beachnut]

did ya check out wikileaks. it just took a few mins for a confirmation...and gofer06 had a visual confirmation.

wikileaks - this is funny

Did you check outside? Did you check under the rock?

Have you ever worked in a command post in any capacity?

Will there be single integrated operation plan for you to tie your junk to the E-4?

 

[carlitos]

Will there be single integrated operation plan for you to tie your junk to the E-4?

Seconded. Seriously, Senenmut, do you have a point to all of this?

 

[BCR]

Seconded. Seriously, Senenmut, do you have a point to all of this?

I asked that several pages back and I still don't see what Mineta, Cheney or any of this has to do with the OP.

 

[Senenmut]

I'm not getting back into this fully, but just an addition to your point... You've mentioned Belger, so what does Garvey say? Let's see:



This isn't perfect: the real "bring the planes down" order was delivered by Sliney, earlier. Garvey does seem to think Mineta wasn't in the "decision-making loop", though, suggesting he'd been out of touch for a while (something Clarke also said) not on the phone since 9:20-ish; and she says he didn't call in until after the Flight 93 crash, which agrees with the PEOC shelter log and the Slate article I posted earlier.

did ya read sliney's interview. he states at 945 that the order "to land all airborne aircraft" was given. belger said that mineta gave that order also around 945.

so:
" Belger learned of the crash into the Pentagon shortly after it happened. He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented. Belger continued to monitor the system as it executed this order. All aircraft were down and the system grounded by 12:15 P.M."

http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00054.pdf


then from garvey's interview:
After the fourth crash, the challenge was to determine what to do about the national airspace. Sec. Mineta and John Flaherty had left by this time to go to the White House, but were still in communication with the FAA. Belger told Ms. Garvey that Boston and New York ATC had already instituted a ground stop, and Garvey indicated to the Commission that she felt that this was a case of the controllers themselves taking the proper action and that part of the response worked well. At that point, Garvey and Belger felt that they needed to get the Secretary more into the decision-making loop. Mineta then called, and Belger expressed the view that the FAA needed to bring all of the planes down. After conferring with Vice President Cheney, Mineta ordered that action.

as for that 4th plane, if ya read a couple of paragraphs up, she stated this:
"Shortly thereafter, there was a report of a 4th plane having gone down near the Ohio River, and with numerous repetitions became almost a fact."

it sounds like garvey is linking this as the "forth" plane.

and also from the sliney interview, he states that he ground stopped boston and new york BEFORE the second plane hit the towers. so from garvey's interview, not to much time later from those ground stops was when mineta made that order.

looks like minetas timeline holds up still. as for mrs cheney, would YOU trust a cheney?

 

[carlitos]

I asked that several pages back and I still don't see what Mineta, Cheney or any of this has to do with the OP.

Well, there's no harm in repetition then.

Senenmut, do you have a point to all of this?

Could you kindly weave your cheney / mineta stuff into some kind of point? That relates to "E-4B flying around pentagon on 9/11?"

Thanks in advance!

 

[tsig]

Well, there's no harm in repetition then.

Senenmut, do you have a point to all of this?

Could you kindly weave your cheney / mineta stuff into some kind of point? That relates to "E-4B flying around pentagon on 9/11?"

Thanks in advance!

I too am wondering what all this he said/she said has to do with the physical fact that an airliner struck the Pentagon or the E-4B flying around.

(the "ya", lack of capitalization and odd formatting makes her/his posts hard to read. Is this deliberate Senenmut?)

 

[Cheap Shot]

and also from the sliney interview, he states that he ground stopped boston and new york BEFORE the second plane hit the towers. so from garvey's interview, not to much time later from those ground stops was when mineta made that order.

This doesn't sounf right to me, up until the second tower was hit we really didn't have a clue it was a terrorist act, why would have a ground stop been issued before the second tower was hit? Also you state that Mineta made not much time later. if Sliney made the ground stop before the 2nd Tower, and Mineta made the call shortly later, define shortly? 50 minutes later isn't shortly.

From what I remember that day our ground stop went out within about two minutes or less after the 2nd Tower was hit. I belive Terry Biggio made the call to ground stop before he got a call from Sliney or they talked and did it at the same time.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Cheap Shot, a quick question. Is a ground stop only for preventing takeoffs or does it also mean immediate landing of any aircraft in the air in their control areas? I think it's the first but I just wanted a clarification.

 

[beachnut]

The leaky faucet of mineta crap that has no bearing on the E-4 continues with no sign of a plumber to fix the leak. I got some flux and a torch, I have the copper pipe and connectors for 1/2 inch; will that do?

E-4, how is it related to mineta?

 

[dropzone]

Well, there's no harm in repetition then.

Senenmut, do you have a point to all of this?

Doesn't need it. The post is tragicomic on its own.

 

[gumboot]

Cheap Shot, a quick question. Is a ground stop only for preventing takeoffs or does it also mean immediate landing of any aircraft in the air in their control areas? I think it's the first but I just wanted a clarification.

I think it's important to make some clear distinctions here because multiple calls are being confused.

Two things were implemented on Sept 11.

The first was a ground stop. A ground stop prevents any aircraft from taking off in the affected airspace, but does not close the airspace, nor force aircraft out of the airspace.

The second is the declaration of "ATC Zero". This effectively closes the airspace, forcing all aircraft to leave immediately, and preventing any new aircraft entering.

Boston ARTCC declared a local ground stop at 0904, after UA175 hit WTC2. This was followed at 0905 by New York ARTCC taking the more significant step of declaring ATC Zero. This was significant as this declaration prevented the fighters scrambled from Otis ANGB from moving to their original holding position, which was inside NY airspace. Instead they had to hold in military airspace much further away.

On a national scale, Ben Sliney at the ATCSCC declared a national ground stop at 0925. At this point no aircraft anywhere in the USA were allowed to take off. At 0942 this was followed by Sliney declaring ATC Zero nationwide, thus closing US airspace and forcing all aircraft to land immediately.

Sliney did this entirely off his own back, and it's quite clear that no one at FAA HQ, let alone Mineta, had any hand in it, other than to approve it after the fact.

 

[funk de fino]

*snipped reading comprehension junk*

then

looks like minetas timeline holds up still. as for mrs cheney, would YOU trust a cheney?

Stop avoiding the question. Did Mineta state that Mrs Cheney was with Dick in the PEOC when he arrived?

Yes or no will do.

 

[Cheap Shot]

I think it's important to make some clear distinctions here because multiple calls are being confused.

Two things were implemented on Sept 11.

The first was a ground stop. A ground stop prevents any aircraft from taking off in the affected airspace, but does not close the airspace, nor force aircraft out of the airspace.

The second is the declaration of "ATC Zero". This effectively closes the airspace, forcing all aircraft to leave immediately, and preventing any new aircraft entering.

Boston ARTCC declared a local ground stop at 0904, after UA175 hit WTC2. This was followed at 0905 by New York ARTCC taking the more significant step of declaring ATC Zero. This was significant as this declaration prevented the fighters scrambled from Otis ANGB from moving to their original holding position, which was inside NY airspace. Instead they had to hold in military airspace much further away.

On a national scale, Ben Sliney at the ATCSCC declared a national ground stop at 0925. At this point no aircraft anywhere in the USA were allowed to take off. At 0942 this was followed by Sliney declaring ATC Zero nationwide, thus closing US airspace and forcing all aircraft to land immediately.

Sliney did this entirely off his own back, and it's quite clear that no one at FAA HQ, let alone Mineta, had any hand in it, other than to approve it after the fact.

For Sam.I.Am, Gumboot seems to have this information pretty much correct. When he made the final call to close all airspace, though he had been in contact with most of the center's that morning and I beleive everyone was in concert with him closing the airspace. There were some issues about ZNY not wanting the fighters over the city, but eventually they established the cap over the city.

Also ZNY declaring ATC Zero was there way of shutting off thier airspace prior to Sliney making the call. After our groundstop of Logan we initiated at other airports and began calling adjacent Canadian Centers and advised them we were cloing our boundaries. i made several of thos calls, and was quite surprised they didn't question it one bit.

 

[Travis]

I'm trying to figure out how the political leanings of the person have anything to do with their truthfulness and reliability.