Debaser
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But the US doesn't necessarily have a hatred of the Saudi regime (distaste, maybe) and certainly isn't going to do it's best to topple it. OBL, on the other hand...
But the US doesn't necessarily have a hatred of the Saudi regime (distaste, maybe) and certainly isn't going to do it's best to topple it. OBL, on the other hand...
Oystein
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Hilight mine. Explanation?
Oystein
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Therein lies a good question for a wider discussion in politics: Why indeed wasn't the Bush administration going to change the regime in Riad? After all, it is anything but democratic, and does such vile things as executing citizens just because they convert from Islam to, say, Christianity...
Wasn't the war in Iraq all about bringing the torch of freedom to the oppressed peoples of Arabia? Wasn't OBL in a way fighting for "our" course? (Yes, the last sentence is provocation; I don't mean it really ^^)
BigAl
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I'd have to dig for the reporting but ISTR the kingdom wanted us out to give it's Islamist enemies less to be angry about. I assume the fact that by then we had bases in Iraq made it easy to comply.
Oystein
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I'd have to dig for another reference to make a wider point: I have variously read that the USA maintains military personel in ... (add number far north of 100) countries in the world, thus vastly outdoing the rest of the world.
The USA has 4.5% of the world's population, 20% of the world's economy (GDP), but 50% of the world's military budget. Every president since I-don't know-when (going back to FDR at least) has in fact send soldiers abroad to do actual, lethal fighting in foreign lands, foreign continents even.
It seems quite naturally that many people in many countries feel quite squashed by that massive military might as it is in fact projected around the globe.
Terrorism is a private attempt at countering massive state force with asymmetric warfare, employed my middle-class folks who feel powerless.
(I'll let that stand a bit naked, just trying to illicit comments and perspectives. Remember, I am still brainstorming)
TruthersLie
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Have you read Looming Tower? It is an excellent place to start with yuor questions.
Generally it is
1. the palestine/Israel issue
2. the presence of US troops in Saudi
3. the inequity/inequality among the arab world and the lack of options for the younger folks and for people with different religions. (for a good look, see The world is flat, and hot flat and crowded)
see above.
Are they factually correct? Well FACTS are very fluid. No one wakes up in the morning and says "I am evil, I will murder thousands." No. Each person has their own narrative and they are the "good guy." Same with many of the grievences in the Muslim world.
Palestine/Israel...and the reactions of the west... who is the good guy? Who is the "bad guy?" It depends on your POV and where you are coming from.
Well the palestinian issue is an incredibly thorny problem. And I won't open that can of worms.
Can it be "redressed" in a way that satisfies everyone? I seriously doubt it, not when you have ultra conservative Imams who preach that the jews are evil, and western influence is evil...
The only way I can see a way to redress the grievances is to educate the populations of these countries. Most of the suicide bombers/Al Q members are uneducated and feel very troubled about their lot in life.
not openly, not honestly. The US has in general backed Israel and US strategic interests NO MATTER what has happened.
(a good example is that shooting on the Flotilla by Israeli ISI... where they were shot at first... in this part of the world the Israeli's are the devil and started it...)
see above.
This is sooooo sticky it is hard to really examine. Do they hate our freedoms? I woudln't say hate. But do they WANT our freedoms? No for the most part they do and they DO NOT.
(there is a great study done by one of my friends awaiting publication, in which he did a survey of over 1,000 UAE college students about censorship (male and female) and over 95% WANTED and encouraged their governments to CENSOR what they could see, read or access over the internet. Lots more informaiton about censorship of information came out in this study, but it says alot about cultural values, cultural and religious ideas)
This is a very sticky idea... if you ask basic questions about freedom, liberty and justice you will get the ideas that "yes we want those things." But when you discuss what EXACTLY freedom, liberty and justice are, you get different answers.
Another example which outraged many folks in the states. a while back a woman was abducted and gang raped by 7 men. The men were all arrested and sentenced to prison. The time ranging from 2 years to 15 years. The woman was also arrested, and sentenced to 50 lashes for engaging in sex with men who she wasn't married to.
In the western sense, it was a "blame the victim" situation. I know many folks here in the UAE (all western) who were up in arms about it. "how dare they give her 50 lashes for getting raped!!!!" Sounds barbaric doesn't it?
I asked my students about it. Their reply was shocking. This is an actual quote from one of my girls. "She is a dumb bitch and deserves it." I was floored. How and why does she deserve it? "for getting caught." Huh? My students then explained the WHOLE story to me. This woman was cheating on her husband. She was in the car with her lover giving him oral sex. She was caught by this group who took her out and raped her.
My students focused on the first part, her having an affair in a PUBLIC place.
The judgement in Sharia courts is often to punish BOTH parties. So the judges ordered her to receive 50 lashes for having sex with men who weren't her husband (in order to PROVIDE HER AN EXCUSE so she wouldn't be stoned for adultery.)
Now is that barbaric? I think so. But it is their judicial system.
So they admire our freedoms, and in some instances would like them, but they also want their government to "look out for them" and censor what they see, read and learn.
Again... this is soooo thorny. In genaral, NO islam is not to blame. The vast majority of muslims are wonderful people. Exceptionally nice, outgoing, community and family orientated.
The problem is that there is a very vast amount of money in the hands of very, very conservative sects of Islam (The world is flat, Hot flat and crowded by friedman discuss the changes in desert islam vs urban islam. And Looming Tower also discusses this shift in atttidues)
IMHO the biggest problem in Islam is the lack of a central moderating voice. Islam is different from country to country, from area to area, and there is NO ability of a "central" voice to reign in different sects. Each Imam has the ability to issue fatwa's or to condemn others. In fact, it is against islam to say "he isn't a muslim."
(we have commericals in the UAE where a child is watching the news with his father, and it is showing the suicide bombings, and terrorists. All are "muslims." The kid asks his father something like (my arabic is too bad to quote, so I'll paraphrase), "are they muslims?" And dad answers "That isn't for me to decide, it is up to Allah." So they have the opportunity to condemn the violence being done in their name, but they can't.)
I don't think so. But I don't think it is an ally either.
BigAl
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A good list but Kashmir as an incendiary topic has to be added even though Americans are clueless about it.
As I understand it, In Pakistan, Kashmir is used by Islamists to inflame emotions and raise money and volunteers. Much of this gets diverted to fight in Afghanistan or fund terrorist elsewhere.
It's possible that Kashmir is as much a threat to world peace as Israel and Palestine.
Oystein
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Especially with the foes being so huge and nuclearly armed.
Yes, add "Kashmir" to the list.
But don't forget to add "Pakistan" explicitly to it. Pakistan is a dangerous even without Kashmir: You have militants of several sides fighting there now: Secular military, islamists of several provenances, including but not limited to AQ, a shady secret service, and of course the USA with their drones. India too, in all probability.
Oystein
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No, I haven't. Thanks for the recommendation!
Uhm - 3.: Are the terrorists really concerned with the people with different religions?
I was talking about the premises that give rise to narratives and the perception of grievances. A US home grown terrorist might percieve a grievance in that his evil government killed 3000 fellow Americans, and knits a narrative that makes him a fighter for the common good, but he bases this all on false premises.
For example: While no one doubts that the USA had military bases in Saudi Arabia since the Kuwait war, the premise that the USA maintained these bases to effectively guard the holy sites, or the royal regime in Riad, may or may not be factually correct. It seems to me they were really there just to be closer to Saddam. As is evidenced by the absence of troops in S.A. before 1991 and after 2004 or what was it. Apparently, the King can guard both his family's hold on power and the holy sites without having US troops in the country. (US sales of military equipment at favoured conditions is another story)
Same here: No one disputes the existence of that conflict. Beneath the differences of evaluation, there are however some plain facts that can be named and discussed. For example concerning the conduct and outcome of certain elections; the level of cross-border violence and the numbers of victims on either side.
Actually, I don't think we shoild go very much into depth on that problem, other than maybe discussing a general tendency - should the USA favour one side, with or without conditions, or would that be counter-productive...
Oh - are they really? Some of the suicide terrorists and planners of 9/11 were students at, or had university degrees from western universities. This can't be said about a too great proportion of Americans...
Yeah. Seems like we need to educate some people in the west, too...
That is a matter of degrees, right? In Germany, people don't like to give Nazis full freedom of speech, which many Americans can't understand. In the USA, people don't like to give ravers the right to display their boobs publicly, which many Germans can't understand...
We can tackle that from a sceptic point of view. It wasn't so long ago that adultary was considered a crime in the west. Interesting in your case that the woman did in fact commit adultery. So while the lashing is barbaric, at least justice was not dealt out discriminatorily. Many in Europe find some punishments that are still in use in the US quite barbaric.
When asking if "Islam" is to blame, the topic is not so much if any proportion of its adherents are nice or not. Many communists, even many nazis, were personally quite nice.
So that seems to indicate that indeed at least some flavours of Islam are dangerous.
This is not very different from the situation of Christianity in North America, where there are many denominations and not much of a central voice.
Actually, I do think so. An enemy, although not a military one.
ElMondoHummus
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TruthersLie beat me to it. I hate to just point people at books and say "have at it" because reading a book and following up on its sources is a seriously time-consuming undertaking (In regards to Looming Tower, I've yet to actually do the second part of that 
). But seriously, it's very well sourced and laid out.
Ghost Wars is also worth a read.
I read an earlier edition of this book - Understanding Terrorism: Groups, Strategies, and Responses, James M. Poland - and it's also worth a read. Warning, though: It's rather painfully dry reading, since it's basically a textbook for courses (I found it in my local university's library). Plus, it's not all on terrorists rationales; a good deal of it covers governments responses and other elements that are on-topic regarding terrorism but not necessarily on-topic regarding your OP. Still, though, it's worth a read.
There was another book I found in that same university library that actually recounted the history of the hijackers themselves, but for the life of me, I can't remember the title. It was also some rather dry reading, but it had some interesting stories (for example, Mohamed Atta wrote a thesis on urban planning in Aleppo, Syria. Slate.com author Daniel Brook also discovered and wrote about this in one of his columns).
At some point, I want to reconstruct the list of books I've read over the years on the topic. I never thought about it at the time, since I was just picking up a book here, a book there, but it would be helpful to have a reading list beyond the obvious choices (everybody recommends The Looming Tower, and for good reason, but there are other works beyond that which are worth reading). At any rate, if I end up recalling some other titles that'll address your initial post, I'll list them here.
). But seriously, it's very well sourced and laid out.Ghost Wars is also worth a read.
I read an earlier edition of this book - Understanding Terrorism: Groups, Strategies, and Responses, James M. Poland - and it's also worth a read. Warning, though: It's rather painfully dry reading, since it's basically a textbook for courses (I found it in my local university's library). Plus, it's not all on terrorists rationales; a good deal of it covers governments responses and other elements that are on-topic regarding terrorism but not necessarily on-topic regarding your OP. Still, though, it's worth a read.
There was another book I found in that same university library that actually recounted the history of the hijackers themselves, but for the life of me, I can't remember the title. It was also some rather dry reading, but it had some interesting stories (for example, Mohamed Atta wrote a thesis on urban planning in Aleppo, Syria. Slate.com author Daniel Brook also discovered and wrote about this in one of his columns).
At some point, I want to reconstruct the list of books I've read over the years on the topic. I never thought about it at the time, since I was just picking up a book here, a book there, but it would be helpful to have a reading list beyond the obvious choices (everybody recommends The Looming Tower, and for good reason, but there are other works beyond that which are worth reading). At any rate, if I end up recalling some other titles that'll address your initial post, I'll list them here.
TruthersLie
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That is VERY true too.
I left kashmir out on purpose because it expands the conflict, but I agree. It brings in the pakistani ISI, and the funding for these terrorists groups.
I have had some great discussions with my pakistani and indian friends, and they expect a full out war over kashmir (and I expect the possibility that things could go nuclear), it is that much of a threat to peace.
TruthersLie
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Looming tower, spying blind, the secrets factory and I would also include the world is flat and hot, flat and crowded (the last two are aimed more at globalization, but have a very detailed and in depth examination of how the muslim world is incredibly closed with very few opportunities for young people, which causes anger and resentment.)
All of those are great resources for getting a feeling for how the muslim world has gotten into the state it is in (particularly Looming Tower and Hot, Flat and crowded.
Uhm - 3.: Are the terrorists really concerned with the people with different religions?
Of course not, but they claim to be. When you want to hate and hurt people, any rationalization you can come up with is better than none.
Again remember, in the scope of our lives, EVERYONE thinks they are the "good guy." And in our own personal narrative we want to be right. Everyone is like that (including sociopaths, mass murderers and the worst people in history. They all thought they were "right.")
Looming Tower takes a VERY good look at this relationship and the premise it is based on. I highly recommend it.
Not really though. Many of these events which have helped shape the more fundamental parts of Islam are very open to interpretation. It is like playing the game Telephone in grade school. What happens factually is often distorted, retold, second hand accounts and WORSE in the Middle east.
The entire issue is incredibly complex (palestine/israel). And there is NO real way to "fix it."
We (the west) had holocaust guilt, for what we LET happen. And the Jews who moved into Israel were determined to NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.
It was becaue of a lack of understanding and a lack of knowledge about the Muslim world that had the Allies take the palestinian land and give it to the Jews. And that lack of understanding (even evidenced by GWB with his "ain't they all muslims?" comment)
Yes they are. Looming Tower and Hot, Flat and Crowded outline how the money and Imam's come from Saudi Arabia and they are exceptionally conservative, and how the Islamic world has shifted dramatically away from the more liberal/urban Islam of places like Turkey, Jordan and even Egypt to a much more conservative/fundamental Islam of Saudi.
The direct hijackers (pilots) and upper leaders of Al Q are all college educated. They were trained. The vast majority of suicide bombers, and the folks recruited by Al Q are NOT. In many of the mosques and Madrasa's that have been set up by Saudi, they (Saudi) trained the Imam's in exceptionally fundamental Islam, and then send them out to extremely poor areas and have them preach what amounts to hate.
No argument there. When 1/4 of the US public thinks that Obama is a muslim, then that is 25% of the American public who shouldn't be allowed into the gene pool.
In general though, when education levels rise so to does domestic peace and international trade. The level of the education system in the muslim world is abysmal.
No, not in terms of the study I mentioned. It was a direct 95% who wanted the government and the religious leaders to censor what they saw, read, or had access to. Across the board.
Oh she was committing adultery. Which is why the group of 7 men thought they could get away with raping her. After all, why would she go to the police and turn them in if in the same event she could be sentenced to DEATH for adultery. So they figured out she was having an affair, and then took her and raped her.
Yet the difference is that when you read what the ideas are based upon, Islam is a religion of personal struggle and peace to everyone. You can't say that about Nazi's, nor about many communists (esp if they idolize people like Mao, Lenin, Stalin, or Che).
Islam the religion is NOT to blame, how some people have taken the relgion and twisted it to murdering innocents (the wahabist... again see Looming Tower)
Under that thinking, we can say that many flavors of christianity are dangerous (abortion bombings, killing abortion doctors, people who say Nuke Mecca and let god sort them out.) It isn't the religion, but rather the crazies, the people seeking power or those who want to hate.
I disagree. But I think that Islam needs a central voice or at least a recognized strand... (but that is what and why they have been killing each other for 800 years.)
IMHO the problem isn't the religion, but the fact that the religion is intertwined with the politics of so many places. And the fact that often the politics are based on the relgiion.
Turkey, Jordan (and lebanon before the civil war in the 80's) were GREAT examples of how a secular government can coexist with the religion and the areas can prosper.
TruthersLie
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TruthersLie beat me to it. I hate to just point people at books and say "have at it" because reading a book and following up on its sources is a seriously time-consuming undertaking (In regards to Looming Tower, I've yet to actually do the second part of that
Hi Mondo...
Sorry to have stolen your thunder.
Yet when we have such a complex topic as the WHY would Al Q want to attack the US, it is beyond the simple scope of what we can post here in a few thousand words. Why reinvent the wheel when others have already written very indepth analysis.
I point to Looming Tower just because it has everything which Oy was asking about.
I also point to The World is Flat and Hot, Flat and Crowded by Friedman because his take on it is economic and geopolitics is often based on economics...
BigAl
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TruthersLie beat me to it. I hate to just point people at books and say "have at it" because reading a book and following up on its sources is a seriously time-consuming undertaking (In regards to Looming Tower, I've yet to actually do the second part of that
Ghost Wars is also worth a read.
I read an earlier edition of this book - Understanding Terrorism: Groups, Strategies, and Responses, James M. Poland - and it's also worth a read. Warning, though: It's rather painfully dry reading, since it's basically a textbook for courses (I found it in my local university's library). Plus, it's not all on terrorists rationales; a good deal of it covers governments responses and other elements that are on-topic regarding terrorism but not necessarily on-topic regarding your OP. Still, though, it's worth a read.
There was another book I found in that same university library that actually recounted the history of the hijackers themselves, but for the life of me, I can't remember the title.
Maybe it was Perfect Soldiers by McDermott
Here's my recommended list for this topic:
Taliban - Rashid
Lawrence and Aaronsohn - Florence
Churchill's Folly: How Winston Churchill Created Modern Iraq by Christopher Catherwood
The Malakand Field Force by Winston Churchill
( text available free online)
Inside the 9/11 plot and why the FBI and the CIA Failed to Stop It. - Miller, Stone, and Mitchell
Al Qaeda Now - Understanding today's terrorists - Ed. by Greenberg
terror in the Name of God - Stern
Understanding terror networks by Sageman, Marc.
All The Shah's men, An American Coup and the roots of middle east terror
The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America
- James Bamford
The Devil We Know by Baer, Robert
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
I would add "A Peace to End All Peace" by David Fromkin, a excellent history of how the modern Mideast emerged from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War One.
Not a big fan of Robert Baer, who views Iran through rose colored glasses to put it mildly.