Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Gandalfs Beard]

There's no doubt that every one of your posts is so fascinating and insightful as to be completely deserving of a full line-by-line response -- but the thing is, I just don't always have time for that. I take what stands out for me and I respond to that. This forum's quote feature includes a button that makes it trivially easy for anyone interested to reference the original post, and a practice I personally find discourteous is clogging up the page with multiple quotes of the same lengthy post just to make a brief comment. If I've ignored something you feel is important, or if you feel that I've "decontextualized" one of your points, you are always free to specify where and how. Slinging general accusations is a pretty cheap substitute for making that effort.

Said the Pot to the Kettle.

GB

 

[Hallo Alfie]

What is the definition of "self-esteem" that AA proponents are using? Seems to me that self-esteem means having confidence in yourself and your abilities. Surrendering your decision making process to a "higher power" seems somewhat incongruent with this idea...

I would imagine that your definition of self esteem is the same as an AA members'.

I don't think that anywhere is it said that one "surrenders their decision making process" to anyone or anything. I think what you are referring to is where in the suggested steps it says "to hand ones life and will over to the care of god as we understood him".

Here I would ask, "what is your understanding of god?", as the answer to your question depends on the answer to mine. I know that sounds a bit evasive and I honestly don't mean it to be. The fact is that if you are a deist and (for example) believe in a Christian God, then the answer will/can be one thing. If you are a non-deist and believe in (say) the laws of nature as a HP, then the answer might be rather different.

This step in basic terms about relinquishing the need to control everyone and everything around us. We did that in our drinking and that self will and our best judgement ended up as us being practicing alcoholics. Our lone courage and self determination failed us time and again. We had what we call "self will run riot", and it failed to serve us.

In this step the alcoholic gives up the need to do it alone and they now reach out and ask for help - something that most of us in the past found very difficult. We must stop being the centre of the universe and realise that there are other things, beings, whatever out there. This step is about faith - whether that be spiritual, religious, in other humans, whatever.

So, what is your higher power?

 

[AlBell]

Why would that be relevant ? The question is, am I right, or not ?

I'm sure you believe you are right.

Yes, indeed. HELP you. Hopefully you realise that, in the end, and with their help, YOU were the one to solve your problem, not some fuzzy higher power.

Good Orderly Direction (GOD) are what AA groups furnish me.

Alcoholics I've known use their best cognitive abilities to justify their drinking behaviors. Some eventually use those same facilities to realize they have a problem they don't seem capable of solving on their own, likely having tried to do so for years.

Obviously, since I don't drink.

Now that you've used pages to share your views on the useless-and-unsuitable-for-atheists AA, let me know what you think of Rational Recovery. I classify it as a money-making scam top to bottom. Luckily an alcoholic who finds AA useful should never find it.

 

[Dymanic]

Seems to me that self-esteem means having confidence in yourself and your abilities.

Genuine confidence in your real self and your real abilities, though. Try to be something you're not, and unless "trying" means being willing to do whatever work is involved in becoming that, you'll surely fail. If you go for the next best thing and pretend to be something you're not -- and your masquerade succeeds -- what have you got? Lie on a job application and what you get is a job you're not qualified for. Create a persona so as to win the favor of an attractive member of the opposite sex (or whatever, as the case may be) and what you get is a relationship lacking true intimacy because you can't reveal your genuine self to that person without running the risk that they'll bolt. Convince yourself that you're something you're not, and what you get is deep inner conflict.

Having said all that, I want to temper it a little. To some extent, we do define ourselves and redefine ourselves on an ongoing basis, and not necessarily always on an entirely factual basis, and there probably is no clearly indentifiable point at which it ceases to be a healthy manifestation of creative flexibility and begins to be a destructive and pathological manifestation of fundamental dishonesty.

What I do know is that a key insight for me was that I'd been using arrogance as a substitute for self esteem. I was an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. I was overcompensating for what I perceived, on some level, to be my own "defects of character", though I was not familiar with that terminology. On closer examination, and with some guidance from AA members and literature, it turned out that a lot of what was going on was that grandiose notions about my own abilities -- that is, an overestimation of my good qualities, ironically -- had inspired me to set impossible standards for myself, and I was as brutally hard on myself when I failed to meet them as I was on those whom I felt ought to be doing more to help me meet them.

I'm still not immune to that. Left to its own devices, my head has a tendency to inflate itself. Keeping it down to its proper size requires constant vigilance. I don't claim to be successful at this all of the time. But conflating that effort and its results with the notion of "sin" being overcome by "grace" seems laughable to me. I see nothing that demands so exotic an explanation.

 

[Belz...]

I'm sure you believe you are right.

Again, irrelevant.

Alcoholics I've known use their best cognitive abilities to justify their drinking behaviors. Some eventually use those same facilities to realize they have a problem they don't seem capable of solving on their own, likely having tried to do so for years.

And yet it's not a higher power that helps them out of it.

Now that you've used pages to share your views on the useless-and-unsuitable-for-atheists AA

Strawman.

 

[AlBell]

Strawman.

Even those without a drinking problem and who have never been to an AA meeting can post all the Strawmen they want.

ps. Sorry you choose to have no interest in Rational Recovery.

 

[marplots]

AAAlfie,

Would you at least agree that AA is not not-religious? That is, if I were a believer in God, I would have no problem with the doctrine?

This is one way to measure religiosity. Ask the religious and the non-religious their opinion.

 

[Belz...]

Even those without a drinking problem and who have never been to an AA meeting can post all the Strawmen they want.

Gee, it seems to me like you've got some attitude problem. I'm having a discussion with adults, here. If you can't behave, perhaps your parents should take your toy computer away.

Or alternativey, you can explain how me not being an alcoholic disqualifies me as a participant to this thread.

I won't be holding my breath. Your last post shows how far you're willing to go to appear clever.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

AAAlfie,

Would you at least agree that AA is not not-religious? That is, if I were a believer in God, I would have no problem with the doctrine?

This is one way to measure religiosity. Ask the religious and the non-religious their opinion.

The only trouble with framing the question that way Marplots, is that while most religious people (believers in God) would recognize that AA is clearly religious (promoting a belief in God), they might not necessarily agree with the particular doctrines espoused.

But you're aiming the right direction, as most God believers would have less problem with being in a God promoting support group than being in one which is not.

GB

 

[AlBell]

Gee, it seems to me like you've got some attitude problem. I'm having a discussion with adults, here. If you can't behave, perhaps your parents should take your toy computer away.

I suppose you think that was an adult comment?

Or alternativey, you can explain how me not being an alcoholic disqualifies me as a participant to this thread.

I don't recall mentioning you were disqualified to participate in this thread.

I do again direct your attention to Rational Recovery being purported by some as an atheist alternative to AA.

I won't be holding my breath. Your last post shows how far you're willing to go to appear clever.

My actual concern is that unfairly labeling AA as a religious organization, and implying that atheists can find nothing of use in AA meetings, might dissuade an alcoholic atheist from using a resource that could assist him in overcoming a drinking problem.

Your actual concern remains unclear to me.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

My actual concern is that unfairly labeling AA as a religious organization, and implying that atheists can find nothing of use in AA meetings, might dissuade an alcoholic atheist from using a resource that could assist him in overcoming a drinking problem.

Your actual concern remains unclear to me.

It's not unfair if it's true (which it is), and clearly many Alcoholic Atheists and Agnostics DO have a problem with being in such a clearly religious organization, or they wouldn't have bothered to start up non-religious support groups and recovery programs (though it's my contention that many of the secular programs are still operating with an assumption based on a religious value judgment).

As has been pointed time and again on this thread, a religious support group like AA might be beneficial for the religiously inclined, but is more likely to be detrimental to those who are not.

There is nothing wrong with dissuading people from participating in a program that is less likely to be helpful (and possibly detrimental) to them than another program.

Part of the problem is that because AA got in the game early and promoted the 12 Steps as the Gold Standard for Recovery Programs, they are often the only game in town in many communities, and the default organization that the Judicial system forces people into.

GB

 

[AlBell]

It's not unfair if it's true (which it is),

A point you've argued, and perhaps convinced some; that does not a 'fact' make.

and clearly many Alcoholic Atheists and Agnostics DO have a problem with being in such a clearly religious organization, or they wouldn't have bothered to start up non-religious support groups and recovery programs (though it's my contention that many of the secular programs are still operating with an assumption based on a religious value judgment).

I tend to look at other startups as money making ventures rather than self-help groups. ymmv.

As has been pointed time and again on this thread, a religious support group like AA might be beneficial for the religiously inclined, but is more likely to be detrimental to those who are not.

We've been treated to some anecdotes that imply that. No general case can ever be documented, and the actual answer will always be 'Who Knows?".

There is nothing wrong with dissuading people from participating in a program that is less likely to be helpful (and possibly detrimental) to them than another program.

True. Unfortunately that may, or may not, be happening in this discussion here.

Part of the problem is that because AA got in the game early and promoted the 12 Steps as the Gold Standard for Recovery Programs, they are often the only game in town in many communities, and the default organization that the Judicial system forces people into.

The bolded phrase is the problem. What do you suggest an alcoholic atheist do in that situation? My thought is at least attending a few meetings, taking what you can and leaving the rest, is a better answer than "Sorry, atheist. No help is available for you.".

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

It's not unfair if it's true (which it is),

A point you've argued, and perhaps convinced some; that does not a 'fact' make.

Unfortunately for your arguments, AA's official literature proves otherwise.

And really, the onus is on you and others arguing your point to prove the reverse, which frankly is impossible given the official literature and decades of history.

Part of the problem is that because AA got in the game early and promoted the 12 Steps as the Gold Standard for Recovery Programs, they are often the only game in town in many communities, and the default organization that the Judicial system forces people into.

The bolded phrase is the problem. What do you suggest an alcoholic atheist do in that situation? My thought is at least attending a few meetings, taking what you can and leaving the rest, is a better answer than "Sorry, atheist. No help is available for you.".

That's a fair point to be sure. I only know that it wouldn't work for me and those that have stated it wouldn't work for them (many Atheists and Agnostics tend not to be "joiners" as George Carlin might put it). But in such situations, I agree there's no harm in at least giving it a shot for a few meetings.

But I would recommend finding a therapist for those in that situation who just can't get past the "God Stuff".

Insofar as RR may be charging for access to their program, you seem to have a fair point also, which is another reason for me to knock them too. But I think I'll take your blanket statement with at least a few grains of salt.

GB

 

[Hallo Alfie]

AAAlfie,

Would you at least agree that AA is not not-religious? That is, if I were a believer in God, I would have no problem with the doctrine?

This is one way to measure religiosity. Ask the religious and the non-religious their opinion.

I have said many times in the thread:
AA is religious if you want it to be.
AA is not religious if you want it to be.

There is no requirement to conform to a particular god. And if it is religious, why do atheists and deists alike thrive and recover?

I have done plenty of stepwork with atheist alcoholics and in some cases we simply ignore the God aspect or modify it to fit the need. As I asked someone earlier, "What is your higher power?" Whether you have one, want one, or don't, there is a lot in the program to assist with recovery.

I do not entirely agree however that it is a way to measure religiosity. Most western civilisations and laws are based around christian teachings, that does not in itself make them religious.

I tend to look at other startups as money making ventures rather than self-help groups. ymmv.

Can anyone explain to me (us) how these other groups work financially?
And (for perhaps the tenth time) what sort of statistics they have on their success.

The bolded phrase is the problem. What do you suggest an alcoholic atheist do in that situation? My thought is at least attending a few meetings, taking what you can and leaving the rest, is a better answer than "Sorry, atheist. No help is available for you.".

Quite.
I have seen atheist alcoholics find god - they are what we might - in broader society - term born again christians, and get quality recovery.
Also, I have seen agnostic and atheist alcoholics reject the god concept, do their stepwork and get quality recovery.
I have seen Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Witches and Wiccans get quality recovery side-by-side. Gays and straights, men and women and political enemies get quality recovery with a god of their understanding.

We seem to forget in the mix here that a god of one's understanding can also be no god at all.

I have seen many reject AA because of their ignorant and closed mind biases (like Gandolf's Beard and others seem to) and miss the opportunity to live a sober and wonderful life. We like to call this "contempt prior to investigation". Actually, perhaps more accurately it is "confirmation bias" and the word God brings up emotions and judgements of hatred, rage and suspicion - sadly they miss the full and true concept of AAs primary purpose: "to assist the suffering alcoholic" and to remain sober ourselves.

There is no requirement to conform to anything - the steps are "recommended" as "Bill saw it", and "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking".

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

The only close-minded and ignorant person on this entire thread is YOU AAAlfie. YOU are the one to put people on the ignore list when they have an argument you can't refute with your sophistry.

Even though I have strong disagreements with others on this thread, we have all been open-minded enough to engage each other and examine each others arguments.

GB

 

[Belz...]

I suppose you think that was an adult comment?

I thought it was simplistic enough so you could understand. But if you want to keep playing with the rest of us you'll have to behave.

I don't recall mentioning you were disqualified to participate in this thread.

You seem quite insisting that, somehow, my opinions or statements are worthless because I don't have, nor ever have had, a drinking problem.

My actual concern is that unfairly labeling AA as a religious organization, and implying that atheists can find nothing of use in AA meetings

Well, I've never claimed the second part, so we can skip this. The first part is clear: you abdicate responsibility to a higher power, which is a transparent term for God.

Your actual concern remains unclear to me.

My concern is that, since AA is a religious group, legally forcing people to attend their meetings is akin to a state-sanctioned religious activity. Also, people going there are told they have no control over their lives, and must seek help from an invisible sky-god. My opinion is that such fairy-tale nonsense is harmful.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Well, I've never claimed the second part, so we can skip this. The first part is clear: you abdicate responsibility to a higher power, which is a transparent term for God.

Wrong (yet) again.
Please review previous posts to garner a full understanding of why your statements are incorrect.

My concern is that, since AA is a religious group, legally forcing people to attend their meetings is akin to a state-sanctioned religious activity.

I would too if it were in fact religious.
Please explain which religion is being taught and how atheists agnostics and everyone else can get sober together?

Also, people going there are told they have no control over their lives, and must seek help from an invisible sky-god.

Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Go back and review. You clearly haven't read and/or understood a word written.

My opinion is that such fairy-tale nonsense is harmful.

Even if that were true, why/how is it "harmful"?

 

[Dancing David]

Religion isn't the only thing that I would have concerns about in the AA program. A big one for me is the "disease" theory of alcoholism. A disease is something that happens to people, not a decision that they make. You can't get rid of your tuberculosis by going to a meeting. Yet perpetrating the disease theory, along with the "once a drunk always a drunk" concept, would seem to provide a permanent excuse for the alcohol abuser, and make it harder for them to both change and gain self-respect.

The disease theory focuses on the symptom (abuse of just one specific substance) rather than the problem (maladaptive coping). Maybe people would be a lot better off if the actual problem were addressed, instead of giving people a bunch of bromides.

Hi Cheri T, the response when I tried to point out the error of the disease model was that:
1. It is a focus of medical treatment.
2. therefore it is a disease.

I tried to point out that it is a behavioral disorder that may or may not have a biological predisposition and may or may not have physical withdrawal syndromes.

The issue as i see it as "You have to choose not to use.", the rest is window dressing.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[Dancing David]

Umm.... read the steps again. They DO focus on maladaptive coping and try to teach more effective ways of dealing with life than through drugs.

Um, not really, I am familiar with the steps and they are NOT a new set of coping skills, they are vague spiritual windows dressing. Real coping skills are not that vague of oooey gooey!

If you tried to teach those as 'life skills' that would be a dismal failure. I mentioned some of the parts of relaspse prevention planning.

"Made a decision to turn out life over to god." is not very helpful.

The only step is the simple one: Choose not to use.

 

[Dancing David]

Huh? I'm not understanding your point here. Try steps 8, 9, and 10 for example:

And what are the first seven, a bunch of moralizing and wallowing in self examination. An inventory is useless.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.


Those steps require accepting responsibility for actions taken, whether drunk or sober.

then they should cut the ******** and just say so.

From my understanding of the program, there is no control over alcohol once the first drink is taken. What the person does up to that point before taking that drink is completely within the control of the person.

And all other choices except to drink. They can still CHOOSE to walk away! That is something addicts don't want to admit.

they can walk away after the first drink.

they just choose not to do so.

And that is just part of the problem, you can't control the amount you use, but you can always CHOOSE to stop. Any time, even after the first drink.

Now if you drink so much you are in a state of automatic inebriation, that may be harder IE blackout.

Now why do I say this, I live with OCD, I do not HAVE to engage in a compulsion, why do I engage in a compulsion? To avoid a panic attack.

I can CHOOSE not to engage in a compulsive behavior, the consequence is a panic attack.
And then I can practice coping with it.
Addicts can CHOOSE to stop their use after one exposure, they just don't choose to do so.

It is easier to choose to not use before you start but you can ALWAYS CHOOSE TO STOP and walk away.

Another analogy: you are unable to swim for whatever reason. Once you find yourself in a large body of water, you'll drown. You simply have no tools or skills to prevent your drowning. But you DO have control over how close you come to the water, wearing a life-vest, etc. Similar concept that many people in recovery believe applies to the addict/alcoholic.

The twelve steps won't teach you how to swim.

Um 'fearless personal inventory' is so vague as to be useless!

How about:
1. take accountability for our choices.
2. develop a behavioral plan to modify our behavior.

The inventory is a bunch of pseudo-freudian twaddle.