Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Hallo Alfie]

Not that it made any difference since he was actually even less appealing on 12-steps than on teh booze. No, I am not kidding you. Because he added to his pre-existing raging egotism and self pity the sense of entitlement, self righteousness and sanctimoniousness that even religion can't give as well as AA.

Not. A. Fan.

Actually the 'program' of AA will/should do the exact opposite of what you say: to remove ego, to remove self pity and to remove any sense of entitlement, expectation, self-righteousness etc.

I have at least one example where this was the case. As I posted above, my dad is quite likely to be bipolar, is definitely dyslexic (which only matters inasmuch as he obsesses over his failed schooling) and also probably has adhd. He would probably have done better on Concerta or an SSRI than on AA and AA was in fact obscuring the possibility of alternative help for him.

AA gave my dad the tools to keep feeling sorry for himself and to take no responsibility for his actions. He grasped them with both hands.

AA is a tool to remove self pity, not give more.
Also AA recommends that people seek outside help for outside problems.
Comorbidity is rife amongst alcoholics and to expect and/or suggest AA to have tools here is ridiculous. People are encouraged to seek outside expertise wherever necessary.

If your father chose not to do these things, then just like his sobriety, he is responsible, not AA.

You seem to believe that your sobriety is the most important thing in the world.

To me, it is.
Nothing else can/will happen without it.
It is seriously and literally life and death for me.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

If your father chose not to do these things, then just like his sobriety, he is responsible, not AA.

How was he responsible for a choice, that according to the First Three Steps, he had no power to make on his own?

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.

And by the way, ignoring an opponents argument is a sign of your own unsupportable arguments. If you can't take the intellectual heat, why are you even in the kitchen AAAlfie?

Does it make you feel safer to have me at number 2 on your ignore list?

I think I know why you ignore my arguments. It's because I stick mostly to analyzing the evidence of AA's history, literature, and socio-political influence, rather than anecdote (but I do have some of those too). These things are undeniable. That you choose not to face them says a lot about you and AA.

I guess this means I won the argument.

GB

 

[Belz...]

Actually the 'program' of AA will/should do the exact opposite of what you say: to remove ego, to remove self pity and to remove any sense of entitlement, expectation, self-righteousness etc.

Yeah. Replace all that with self-loathing. How very Christian.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Yeah. Replace all that with self-loathing. How very Christian.

And yet again, so totally wrong:

You replace all that, with self-esteem.

 

[Dymanic]

Actually, I have plenty of anecdotals where alcies _start_ treating everyone close to them like **** first when they join AA.

The concept that alcoholism affects entire families is by no means exclusive to AA, but the shift in family dynamics that so often takes place during the early stages of sobriety -- including the effects your anecdotes would no doubt relate -- was regarded by the authors of the Big Book as important enough to warrant two entire chapters: "To Wives" and "The Family Afterward". Of course, it's not a religious concept; therefore, those chapters are not "part of AA" (or so some posters here would need to argue in order to be consistent with arguments they've made earlier).

But my absolute favourite is the faux humility. You know what I'm talking about guys. The one where you* say: "I'm just happy to learn", but run through the translator it's more like: "I want to talk condescendingly to you until you worship my new found wisdom!"

I usually take that sort of thing to really be mostly a matter of people talking condescendingly to themselves until they come to worship their newfound wisdom (whether they realize it or not). Alternatively (or perhaps simultaneously) it may be a matter of them seeking the approval of others whom they perceive to be in possession of wisdom to which they aspire.

Of course, I try to remember that all of these analyses are subject to challenge on the basis that my mind-reading abilities are not always as reliable as I may suppose; that the father of psychoanalysis himself is reported to have once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"; and that taking someone's words at face value is an option I may want to at least be willing to consider. Call me self-centered, but if what they're saying is something that may be useful to ME, (and no one but me gets to decide that) then it really doesn't matter much what their motives are.

 

[Belz...]

And yet again, so totally wrong:

You replace all that, with self-esteem.

Self-Esteem doesn't seem to rhyme with Christianity. Not when everything that happens to you is the will of some invisible creator.

 

[Dymanic]

Self-Esteem doesn't seem to rhyme with Christianity. Not when everything that happens to you is the will of some invisible creator.

Excellent point. I wonder if you'd be willing to go so far as to say that if it's about self-esteem rather than self-loathing, it's not Christianity?

 

[Cheri_T]

Religion isn't the only thing that I would have concerns about in the AA program. A big one for me is the "disease" theory of alcoholism. A disease is something that happens to people, not a decision that they make. You can't get rid of your tuberculosis by going to a meeting. Yet perpetrating the disease theory, along with the "once a drunk always a drunk" concept, would seem to provide a permanent excuse for the alcohol abuser, and make it harder for them to both change and gain self-respect.

The disease theory focuses on the symptom (abuse of just one specific substance) rather than the problem (maladaptive coping). Maybe people would be a lot better off if the actual problem were addressed, instead of giving people a bunch of bromides.

 

[The Norseman]

A disease is something that happens to people, not a decision that they make. You can't get rid of your tuberculosis by going to a meeting.

Yes, exactly. You don't have a choice to be an alcoholic, but you DO have the choice of how you deal with the effects it has in your life, just like any other disease. People sometimes get diabetes. Milder forms can be controlled with diet adjustments alone. A smaller set of those people choose to eat whatever they want but take insulin instead. They have chosen not to make lifestyle changes which would help control the effects of the disease. For others, this is not the case but as with all analogies, this one is imperfect.

Yet perpetrating the disease theory, along with the "once a drunk always a drunk" concept, would seem to provide a permanent excuse for the alcohol abuser, and make it harder for them to both change and gain self-respect.

In what way?

The disease theory focuses on the symptom (abuse of just one specific substance) rather than the problem (maladaptive coping). Maybe people would be a lot better off if the actual problem were addressed, instead of giving people a bunch of bromides.

Umm.... read the steps again. They DO focus on maladaptive coping and try to teach more effective ways of dealing with life than through drugs.

 

[Belz...]

Excellent point. I wonder if you'd be willing to go so far as to say that if it's about self-esteem rather than self-loathing, it's not Christianity?

Oh, I'd even be willing to go that far for any religion.

But right now I'll just claim that, in the context of AA, self-loating is certainly an integral part of the 12 steps. Otherwise you wouldn't need to give in to a higher power, and you could just solve the problem yourself (with help, of course).

And abdicating any form of responsibility to a higher power is very typically reilgious. Specifically Christian, in this case.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Self-Esteem doesn't seem to rhyme with Christianity.

Excellent. Then you see it is not Christianity.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Oh, I'd even be willing to go that far for any religion.

But right now I'll just claim that, in the context of AA, self-loating is certainly an integral part of the 12 steps. Otherwise you wouldn't need to give in to a higher power, and you could just solve the problem yourself (with help, of course).

And abdicating any form of responsibility to a higher power is very typically reilgious. Specifically Christian, in this case.

And again just so very, very wrong.
What you claim and what you can prove or show, are poles apart.

 

[Dymanic]

But right now I'll just claim that, in the context of AA, self-loating is certainly an integral part of the 12 steps.

That's not merely wrong, it's exactly wrong. It's one hundred and eighty degrees wrong. Self-loathing is an integral part of alcholism, the very thing the 12 steps are intended to address.

 

[The Norseman]

And abdicating any form of responsibility to a higher power is very typically reilgious.

Huh? I'm not understanding your point here. Try steps 8, 9, and 10 for example:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.


Those steps require accepting responsibility for actions taken, whether drunk or sober.

From my understanding of the program, there is no control over alcohol once the first drink is taken. What the person does up to that point before taking that drink is completely within the control of the person.

Another analogy: you are unable to swim for whatever reason. Once you find yourself in a large body of water, you'll drown. You simply have no tools or skills to prevent your drowning. But you DO have control over how close you come to the water, wearing a life-vest, etc. Similar concept that many people in recovery believe applies to the addict/alcoholic.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Huh? I'm not understanding your point here. Try steps 8, 9, and 10 for example:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.


Those steps require accepting responsibility for actions taken, whether drunk or sober.

From my understanding of the program, there is no control over alcohol once the first drink is taken. What the person does up to that point before taking that drink is completely within the control of the person.

Another analogy: you are unable to swim for whatever reason. Once you find yourself in a large body of water, you'll drown. You simply have no tools or skills to prevent your drowning. But you DO have control over how close you come to the water, wearing a life-vest, etc. Similar concept that many people in recovery believe applies to the addict/alcoholic.

The problem is, the FIRST THREE STEPS completely and utterly contradict the Steps you quoted. As do most of the OTHER Steps which are entirely religious in nature.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

Thus, MOST of the Steps actually advocate the abdication of responsibility to God, and is a clear call for the Sinner to Confess his/her Sins so that God can bless the Sinner with "His" Grace, and then to Proselytize to others having achieved this State of Grace.

GB

 

[Dymanic]

As do most of the OTHER Steps which are entirely religious in nature.

Does this "textual evidence" in the form of bolded quotes represent the substance of your argument? Is the mere mention of God sufficient to render something "entirely religious in nature"? If so, what do you make of the fact that the words "In God We Trust" appear on our currency? Is the U.S. Treasury a religious organization?

The question "Is AA religious" cannot be answered without making at least some attempt to answer the question, "What is religion"? Though I haven't seen any non-trivial attempts to do that in this thread, others have made that effort in other recent threads, such as this one:

Is Reiki a religion?
In which the OP asks what I find to be the question most pertinent here:

What makes a religion?

and this one:
Christianity without religion-the new religion
Among the interesting arguments there is this one, with which I happen to agree:

The "essential principles of Christianity" transcend the religion, or any religion.
It's just common sense to treat others as you would like to treated. No need to bend one's knee to anything/anyone other than common decency.

Do you also agree with that, or do you side with those religious fundamentalists who consider religious belief to be the only possible basis for morality?

Thus, MOST of the Steps actually advocate the abdication of responsibility to God, and is a clear call for the Sinner to Confess his/her Sins so that God can bless the Sinner with "His" Grace, and then to Proselytize to others having achieved this State of Grace.

I swear, this is like "my thoughts on surfing" from a person who has never been within a hundred miles of the ocean, but maybe watched a couple of movies about skateboarding. You are so completely confused about what goes on in AA (and what doesn't) that it's hard to know where to begin, but here's a small sample from the Big Book chapter on Step Four:

"We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault? What should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it."

Before we discuss the step which follows and how it differs from a roughly analogous practice in the Catholic church (with which you appear to have AA confused), can I assume from your omission of this step from your analysis above that we agree that there is nothing religious about asking one's self these questions (or -- gasp -- writing them down)? Is it your position that some of the steps are religious in nature and some are not?

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Does this "textual evidence" in the form of bolded quotes represent the substance of your argument? Is the mere mention of God sufficient to render something "entirely religious in nature"? If so, what do you make of the fact that the words "In God We Trust" appear on our currency? Is the U.S. Treasury a religious organization?

I have already addressed your specious analogy in a previous post on this thread. "In God We Trust" does not belong on secular currency. But it is, as you put it, a "mere mention." The 12 Steps are not a "mere mention". They explicitly refer to the Christian Deity in 8 out of 12 Steps. And the key components of Confession of Sins, and accepting the Grace of God are Christian tenets.

The question "Is AA religious" cannot be answered without making at least some attempt to answer the question, "What is religion"? Though I haven't seen any non-trivial attempts to do that in this thread, others have made that effort in other recent threads, such as this one:

Is Reiki a religion?
In which the OP asks what I find to be the question most pertinent here:

What makes a religion?

AA is not a religion in and of itself, but it is a religious organization founded and based on Christianity. For all practical purposes and in a Nutshell, a religion is the worship of a Deity.

and this one:
Christianity without religion-the new religion
Among the interesting arguments there is this one, with which I happen to agree:

The "essential principles of Christianity" transcend the religion, or any religion.
It's just common sense to treat others as you would like to treated. No need to bend one's knee to anything/anyone other than common decency

Do you also agree with that, or do you side with those religious fundamentalists who consider religious belief to be the only possible basis for morality?

The quote is problematic. First it presumes that morality is the "essential principle of Christianity." The essential principle of Christianity is not Morality, but the Divinity of Jesus. Hence Christianity is a Religion in the most basic definition of the word.

However, I do agree that some of the Moral tenets mentioned by Christ are Universal; and that those tenets which are Universal do not require a Deity, but can be reached through Reason.

But another problem with the quote, is that some of the alleged Morals espoused by Jesus are NOT Universal, and Moral contradictions abound throughout the Christian Bible.

Thus, MOST of the Steps actually advocate the abdication of responsibility to God, and is a clear call for the Sinner to Confess his/her Sins so that God can bless the Sinner with "His" Grace, and then to Proselytize to others having achieved this State of Grace.

I swear, this is like "my thoughts on surfing" from a person who has never been within a hundred miles of the ocean, but maybe watched a couple of movies about skateboarding. You are so completely confused about what goes on in AA (and what doesn't) that it's hard to know where to begin,

If you had bothered to read any of my earlier posts on this thread, you would have discovered that I have experienced AA and NA, up close and personal.

But I prefer not to argue from anecdote, but rather, empirical evidence and analysis. A textual analysis, and an examination of AA's historical record demonstrate that the Steps of AA are precisely analogues of Christian Doctrine.

but here's a small sample from the Big Book chapter on Step Four:

"We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault? What should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it."

Before we discuss the step which follows and how it differs from a roughly analogous practice in the Catholic church (with which you appear to have AA confused), can I assume from your omission of this step from your analysis above that we agree that there is nothing religious about asking one's self these questions (or -- gasp -- writing them down)? Is it your position that some of the steps are religious in nature and some are not?

Precisely. And again, if you had bothered to read some of my earlier posts on this thread you would already know that. But the fact is, only 4 out of the 12 Steps are non-religious, and they contradict the other 8.

By the way, in Catholicism Confession is taken by a priest. Public Confessions, Confessions directly to the injured party, and/or Confessing directly to God are decidedly Protestant in origin, as is AA.

GB

 

[Belz...]

And again just so very, very wrong.
What you claim and what you can prove or show, are poles apart.

Not sure I understand what you mean by "what you claim and what you can prove or show".

 

[Belz...]

Huh? I'm not understanding your point here. Try steps 8, 9, and 10 for example:

See Gandalf's Beard's post. The fact that some steps don't mention what I'm talking about in no way erases what the other steps say.

 

[Belz...]

That's not merely wrong, it's exactly wrong. It's one hundred and eighty degrees wrong.

180 degrees wrong would not make it exactly wrong, would it ?

Self-loathing is an integral part of alcholism, the very thing the 12 steps are intended to address.

Yes, and isn't it quite an amazing coincidence that both alcoholism AND Christianity result in you seeing yourself as worthless ?