The "Nakba" Myth

[Doctor Evil]

Talk by Morris here:

 

[Mycroft]

Benny Morris actually came out against people abusing his material and said that there was no pre-planned expulsions of Palestinians. He said there were some expulsions and some left but all of it was a consequence of the war. (and we all know who started that.)

I know, but these guys will turn it into a master-plan anyway.

 

[bigjelmapro]

For example, the children of non-violent protesters were arrested and held without charges and usually beaten. The children were hold hostage to their parents behavior. If the Brits had stooped that low they might have stopped Gandhi. As I said, it requires the perp to have a conscience which the Brits apparently did.

Oh, you mean the protestors who drag their children with them to these very protests. Not getting into the case of irresponsible parenting, when protests get violent, protesters are detained wholesale, then released wholesale. To detain them, for a period of time (which also exists in the UK, US, Spain, you name it) without charge is not illegal.

These days the IDF regularly kills someone during "peaceful" protests with live fire, aimed tear gas canisters, or just wades in and starts beating the crap out of them. That these things are reported in the European media but not the US media. There appears to be an intrinsic difference in US media.

Obviously you've never fired tear gas in any exercise. You can't 'aim' these really. The IDF uses anti-riot methods, which at times includes rubber bullets, where not getting into whether they should or should not be used for anti-riot use (I personally don't agree since there's other methods than rubber bullets), and is not considered 'live fire'.

Which European media are you referring to here? The brunt of those commenting on this forum, including Americans, have access to overseas media...

 

[Virus]

Don't bother with Matt Giwer, Bigjel. He's a Holocaust denier and Truther. He runs an antisemite conspiracy theory website.

 

[Virus]

As for Ilan Pappe, he's a notorious case of a far-far-left loon. As DE notes below, his "research" is essentially one big collection of lies whose purpose isn't to reach the truth but to lie about the Jews so as to blacken their name unjustly. Much like Chomsky & co.'s "research".

Yeah he supports Hamas. That's an instant write-off in my books.

“I support Hamas in its resistance against the Israeli occupation.” Pappe’s article, entitled “Genocide in Gaza,” speaks of the “Palestinian resistance in front of Israeli occupation,” and uses terms such as “imprisoning Gaza,” “massacres,” “ethnic cleansing,” and “genocide politics” in order to describe the actions of the Israeli government.

Probably why he's a favorite of the Muslim Brotherhood-linked MSA and MSU. They can't get enough of having their own victimhood narrative fed back to them.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Don't bother with Matt Giwer, Bigjel. He's a Holocaust denier and Truther. He runs an antisemite conspiracy theory website.

Won't stop me from rebutting his half-baked attempts at replies...

Its pretty easy.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Benny Morris actually came out against people abusing his material and said that there was no pre-planned expulsions of Palestinians. He said there were some expulsions and some left but all of it was a consequence of the war. (and we all know who started that.)

As he is only one out of the many historians using Israel government records who has "recanted" it hardly matters to discuss him. But at that is the case ...

His recantation consisted entirely of saying the atrocities and crimes were good because they lead to the creation of Israel.

It is odd to find such an open admission that any crime is permitted if it benefits the Jews. It suggests there really are such principles in Judaism.

 

[Matt Giwer]

And you describe it with such vivid imagery. One might think you’ve spent more than a passing hour concocting your fantasy. Let’s hope your imagined spasms of violence provide you with the relief you were looking for, the rest of us don’t need to know what you might be capable of if you don’t get that kind of release.

I was merely describing it in terms which are clear to Americans.

I once watched a Jerry Springer show where this attractive but abhorrent young woman bragged that her prison boyfriend was serving a life sentence for strangling a man with a shoelace because he suspected the man of taking $10 from his wallet. Even though he was in prison, she bragged that “nobody messes with my man.”

Are you defending the mad dog policy of Moshe Dayan?

But then people watch Jerry Springer because the values we see there are not like most people. Thankfully.

It’s been a very long time since I’ve studied Kant, but I don’t remember him being as violent as you describe.

Violence is immaterial to the subject of a moral imperative. An imperative merely is.

The UN frowns on more than just genocide. It’s generally accepted that once you defeat your enemy, the violence should stop. It’s even encouraged that you can defeat them without using violence.

In this world that is the presumption after there is a peace treaty not after a one-sided declaration of battlefield success. Ask the British about the Irish for further information.

For example, there is a political movement in the South West United States called Aztlan, which seeks to form its own country out of parts of the US and Mexico for the indigenous peoples of the Americas. So far “defeating” them hasn’t required anything more violent than ignoring them. It hasn’t been necessary for any of them to be found face down, floating in the Rio Grande river.

And they have declared nothing to incite the consequences. My explain was in fact predicated upon a declaration in New York City as there was in Palestine.

Ooh! Good thing then that the Israelis adept at such non-lethal methods as the use of rubber bullets, and are pioneers in methods as of reducing civilian casualties by giving advanced warnings by text messaging and dropped leaflets.

Just the other day read a court decision in Israel where an IDFer murdered a child with a rubber bullet. It was a civil court because there were no charges at all in the criminal investigation. Israel courts have regularly found the IDF uses the rubber coated steel balls in manner intended to be lethal. Then there was Rachael Corrie in the death-by-bulldozer case. Death by well-aimed tear gas canister is used.

Then of course the issue of whether or not the methods are lawful to use in occupied territories.

I see you are an aficionado of irony.

Yes, it is funny so many think Jews are a race without asking the shade of Sammy Davis Jr. about it.

Originally Posted by Matt Giwer These days the IDF regularly kills someone during peaceful" protests with live fire, aimed tear gas canisters, or just wades in and starts beating the crap out of them. That these things are reported in the European media but not the US media. There appears to be an intrinsic difference in US media.

Oh, they eat babies too. But in their defense, only the most tender and savory ones.

I never assumed the harvested organs were for consumption.

I was thinking of things like the murder of Rachael Corrie which had a trivial amount of news coverage in the US as compared to Europe and even Israel.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Oh, you mean the protestors who drag their children with them to these very protests. Not getting into the case of irresponsible parenting, when protests get violent, protesters are detained wholesale, then released wholesale. To detain them, for a period of time (which also exists in the UK, US, Spain, you name it) without charge is not illegal.

Children who were not present were arrested by the Jews because of their parents' peaceful protests. Why do you instantly jump to the long exposed lie about dragging children to protests?

Obviously you've never fired tear gas in any exercise. You can't 'aim' these really.

Even Israeli military courts have found that they were aimed. So have their civilian courts. So did the family of Hurndal.

The IDF uses anti-riot methods, which at times includes rubber bullets, where not getting into whether they should or should not be used for anti-riot use (I personally don't agree since there's other methods than rubber bullets), and is not considered 'live fire'.

Why do you not consider steel balls with a thin rubber coating to protect the rifling of the barrel not live fire?

Which European media are you referring to here? The brunt of those commenting on this forum, including Americans, have access to overseas media...

The Guardian, Times of London, and news services such as AFP and references to news sources in other countries. This has also been remarked upon by jewish, Israeli news sources. The Israelis appear somewhat shocked that milder comments on Israel than appear in Israeli papers are considered antisemitic by the media establishment in the US.

Besides there a more than a few Israelis here. Look at all the defenders of Israel. From reading your posts I thought you were an Israeli.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Don't bother with Matt Giwer, Bigjel. He's a Holocaust denier and Truther. He runs an antisemite conspiracy theory website.

Why do you lie about me?

 

[bigjelmapro]

Children who were not present were arrested by the Jews because of their parents' peaceful protests. Why do you instantly jump to the long exposed lie about dragging children to protests?

Baseless rhetoric. Which protests are you referring to? Do you really want to open this can of worms? There's plenty of evidence that children are indeed brought to various protests.

Even Israeli military courts have found that they were aimed. So have their civilian courts. So did the family of Hurndal.

More baseless rhetoric. And another deflection. You were talking about tear gas canisters being aimed, and now you bring up another case of a shooting by a sniper.

Why do you not consider steel balls with a thin rubber coating to protect the rifling of the barrel not live fire?

I don't make the definition of anti-riot materials. If you want to get into a discussion as to why rubber bullets (ie with metal cores, as opposed to the latest sand bullets that IDF has adopted) are designated as anti-riot materials, then start another thread.

The Guardian, Times of London, and news services such as AFP and references to news sources in other countries.

Ever heard of this thing called the 'internet'? How about international orders for overseas newspapers? A 'magazine/newspaper store'?

This has also been remarked upon by jewish, Israeli news sources. The Israelis appear somewhat shocked that milder comments on Israel than appear in Israeli papers are considered antisemitic by the media establishment in the US.

Commenting on what? What is anti-semitic? Maybe if you're referring to carrying more organ theft stories and the like, I would agree with you, but apparently there's plenty of critical newscasts on CNN, BBC, ABC, CBS, Sky and the like. If you want fiction, I'm sure there's plenty of it on Rense or Jewwatch.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Why do you lie about me?

Perhaps choose another name and link a different website then.

 

[Skeptic]

I have to say this for Mr. Giwer: putting his self-portrait in his avatar is an act of considerable courage, and it certainly goes a long way to explain his history of usenet and internet posts.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Baseless rhetoric. Which protests are you referring to? Do you really want to open this can of worms? There's plenty of evidence that children are indeed brought to various protests.

While I am certain israeli propagandists claim a lot of things. However I thought it was clear I was talking about the original West Bank protests over Israeli occupation forcing Israeli slanted textbooks into their schools. The parents protested and the IDF visited their homes and arrested their children and held them hostage until their parents agreed to stop protesting the Israeli control of their education.

More baseless rhetoric. And another deflection. You were talking about tear gas canisters being aimed, and now you bring up another case of a shooting by a sniper.

The case was recently revived in which a cameraman filming the protest and no where near the protesters was struck in the head by a gun launched tear gas canister.

I don't make the definition of anti-riot materials. If you want to get into a discussion as to why rubber bullets (ie with metal cores, as opposed to the latest sand bullets that IDF has adopted) are designated as anti-riot materials, then start another thread.

What I asked was why you considered a lethal round to be non-lethal. I presume you are not one of those who believes the name given a thing governs what a thing is.

Ever heard of this thing called the 'internet'? How about international orders for overseas newspapers? A 'magazine/newspaper store'?

If you had wanted a url you could have so I could have told you to look it up.

Commenting on what? What is anti-semitic? Maybe if you're referring to carrying more organ theft stories and the like, I would agree with you, but apparently there's plenty of critical newscasts on CNN, BBC, ABC, CBS, Sky and the like. If you want fiction, I'm sure there's plenty of it on Rense or Jewwatch.

I was thinking of other things not your red herring.

I was talking about the reports of near weekly of IDF violence on the peaceful protests against the illegal apartheid wall in occupied territory for example. I was thinking about the regular Israeli reports of systematic government discrimination against non-jewish Israelis. Also about the systematic humiliation of and violence upon Palestinians in the West Bank and occupied Jerusalem by the both the IDF and by the squatters under the protection and watchful eye of the IDF.

Just recently there was an article saying how good it was that Jews do control Hollywood in Haaretz -- A Ha'Aretz goes Gibson moment. The recent conviction for rape because the man was not a Jew and how the judge recited racial purity in his decision. The documentation of the rise of fascism in Israel and the fascist laws currently being considered in the Knesset. The lawless behavior of Jews in occupied Jerusalem under the protection of the occupation police -- in fact the entire criminal imposition of civil law and annexation of occupied territory and the fact that no country in the world recognizes that annexation because it is in violation of international law. I was also thinking of the reports of the theft of water from the West Bank and occupied Syria while in the West Bank leaving the non-Jews with an average of less water per person that is less than the minimum set by the UN.

Then there is the coverage of the starvation blockade on Gaza where only 114 different items, not categories but items, total are allowed and then only in limited quantities. The quantity of food is based upon the minimum calories needed to sustain life has also been covered. As to the announced easing of the blockade announced two months ago, it still hasn't happened.

Speaking of the capture of the Freedom Flotilla, so far only Israeli sources have reported five of the nine were killed by close range head shots. They have also reported the IDF policy of "confirming the kill" which is often a close range head shot. And they have reported both in the same news article.

They have also produced the only coverage of the eight year old offer of peace and normalized relations from some 50 Muslim countries that Israel has never considered if only for the purpose of rejection.

The above only go back about three months.

So no, I was not thinking of the red herring you brought up although I will point out that the medical association of Israel is, according to Haaretz, the only one in the world which has not condemned unauthorized organ harvesting. A few countries like China permit it but only from condemned criminals.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Perhaps choose another name and link a different website then.

That does not answer why.

 

[Virus]

That does not answer why.

The answer is on the filthy website you run. Is "Giwer's World" yours or not?

 

[Matt Giwer]

The answer is on the filthy website you run. Is "Giwer's World" yours or not?

Your opinion is your own but filthy, whatever that might mean, was not the allegation. I still ask why the lie.

 

[Virus]

This is how you earned your rep isn't it? It's all on "Giwer's World" on articles written by "Matt Giwer" Is that your site or not?

 

[Skeptic]

Matt's openly a holocaust denier and 9/11 truther.

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for Civility. Please note this is after a number of mod boxes in this thread.

 

[lionking]

Your opinion is your own but filthy, whatever that might mean, was not the allegation. I still ask why the lie.

Are you or are you not a Holocaust denier? And please note that anyone who says "only a million died" is by definition a denier.