Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

Because they might not stay on voice mail? If Amanda was (as she said in her email) in a state of "panic" to the extreme that she was:

1) pounding on her door
2) yelling her name
3) looking through her keyhole
4) leaning over another window trying to look into her room

Amanda did all this but didn't bother to call again? Give me a break. I would have called both phones non-stop and Chris, you know you would have too.

How many times did the other roommates call her phones?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Four questions:

1) Was there any evidence at all that any mopping took place within the girls' house following the murder? Wouldn't the Luminol test have revealed any telltale mopping marks, if indeed a mop have been used to clean up blood spillage?

2) Was the mop/bucket located outside the girls' house at lunchtime on 2 November positively identified as the mop/bucket that came from the girls' house? I am presuming that the other girls or the landlord could/would have identified the mop and bucket, but my assumption might be wrong of course.

3) If the mop/bucket from Sollecito's inventory were missing after the murder, was it ever insinuated that they had anything to do with any clean-up? And, if so, why would Sollecito have been comfortable disposing of these items but not the "murder knife"?

4) Could an expert on the case make a fundamental mix-up on dates, to confuse a pizza receipt from Sunday 4 November with the vigil for Meredith held on Monday 5 November? Wouldn't this be a fairly basic error?

1. No evidence has ever been submitted that would indicate the floor was mopped after the murder. Massei says footprints leading to the print on the mat must have been cleaned up, but that is ridiculous, because why do that and then leave the mat out in plain sight? Guede cleaned up in the bathroom, and in doing so he removed his right shoe and either stepped on a towel soaked with bloody water or had bloody water on his foot/sock.

2. I don't have a very good picture of the mop outside the cottage, but I just uploaded the best one I have:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/cottage_with_mop.jpg

Compare that with the mop in the hallway closet as photographed on Dec. 18:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/mop_in_closet_dec_18.jpg

To me it looks like the bucket outside is more square, and I don't see the label on the mop handle. Otherwise they look pretty similar.

3. The reason Amanda carried the mop to Sollecito's place and back again was because Sollecito did not have a mop. The police spoke to the landlord, a plumber, etc., and it all checked out.

4. I don't understand the question. The pizza receipt at his apt. is from Nov. 4, but I think they also may have eaten pizza on the night of Nov. 5 before going to the police station.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Uh, because college kids like to sleep in maybe? If they had headed out at 9 AM you'd be stating that they're early departure was suspicious behavior as well. That they had committed murder and wanted to be as far away as possible when the body discovered. I'm 31 years old and it's still tough to get my butt out of bed before 11 when I don't have to be at work that day.

1) I've heard Amanda was an early morning person - someone stated that somewhere it court I believe.

2) Big trip planned on this holiday, when did they plan on leaving really, afternoon or early evening?

3) Why sleep in, thought she had a rather uneventful night, maybe checked her e-mail, a late supper and some sex, that shouldn't even take up from 9 til midnight, what did she sleep, 14 and a half hours?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

How many times did the other roommates call her phones?

Do you mean the same cell phones the cops came by to tell them they were found and at the police station, are those the 2 phones you want them to callÉ

 

[katy_did]

Because they might not stay on voice mail? If Amanda was (as she said in her email) in a state of "panic" to the extreme that she was:

1) pounding on her door
2) yelling her name
3) looking through her keyhole
4) leaning over another window trying to look into her room

Amanda did all this but didn't bother to call again? Give me a break. I would have called both phones non-stop and Chris, you know you would have too.

And yet, Filomena didn't call Meredith at all, did she? She said she was "shocked" by the phone call to the point that she told Amanda to call the police (though Paola said that wasn't till the second phone call) and yet she didn't think to try Meredith's phones herself?

(I've read in various places that she did, but I think this might be a mistake in the newspaper report on Filomena's testimony. She's supposed to have said one of the phones rang and rang, and the other went through to Voicemail, but that sounds suspiciously like what happened to Amanda; I don't think there was time for Filomena to call them between Amanda's phone call to her and Amanda calling the phones, as she'd have to have done for one of them to 'ring and ring').

 

[katy_did]

And, Welcome to the JREF forums Justinian2. This thread is only a small and mostly ignored fragment of the vast JREF community. While you are here, take some time to browse through the many other lively discussions.

I keep browsing other threads and wanting to post on them, but then I get so intimidated by the prospect of instantly appearing posts I chicken out...

 

[katy_did]

Uh, because college kids like to sleep in maybe? If they had headed out at 9 AM you'd be stating that they're early departure was suspicious behavior as well. That they had committed murder and wanted to be as far away as possible when the body discovered. I'm 31 years old and it's still tough to get my butt out of bed before 11 when I don't have to be at work that day.

Indeed. When I plan a daytrip, I'm lucky to get out the house before 1... (I always go to sleep the night before with the best of intentions, though).

 

[Magister]

Yeah, about the day trip. Why didn't it happen way before Amanda said she first went back to the apartment? Heading off after 11 for a day trip a few hours away seems late considereing it was a holiday and the buses were probably infrequent.

Gubbio is only 19 miles away and RS had an Audi A3.

 

[RoseMontague]

Good question Rose, but I must add, has anyone asked Frank how much he has been paid for his "reporting"?

My gut feeling is that Frank genuinely believes that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. If he gets paid for giving an honest opinion, good for him.

My gut feeling is that Quintavalle lied on the witness stand in sworn testimony and is partly responsible for Amanda and Raffaele being in jail. If he got money for being a lying liar he is a disgusting creature who deserves to be castigated.

There is no comparison, in my opinion.

 

[Kestrel]

Yeah, about the day trip. Why didn't it happen way before Amanda said she first went back to the apartment? Heading off after 11 for a day trip a few hours away seems late considereing it was a holiday and the buses were probably infrequent.

The planned day trip was to Gubbio, a town only 43 km. from Perugia. A one hour drive in Raffaele's car at the outside.

 

[christianahannah]

Amanda's email indicates that she figured Meredith was in the bedroom since it was locked. When Meredith didn't answer her calling her name out, she and Raf tried to break down the door. When that didn't work they called Raf's sister, a carabinieri officer, who told him to call 112, which he immediately did. I don't see any problems with this scenario, and just because you would have called her phones while standing outside the door for extra confirmation doesn't mean everyone else would have. To Amanda and Raf, the locked door, the unusual state of the cottage, and Meredith's lack of response to calls was enough assessment to determine that Meredith might very likely be in her room and in some state of distress. It's also worth noting that no one else thought to do what you're suggesting in the moment before Luca kicked down the door.

Perhaps the reason no one else thought to ring the cell phones before Luca kicked down the door is because both Meredith's cell phones were in the possession of the postal police at that time.

 

[christianahannah]

How many times did the other roommates call her phones?

Filomena called Meredith's phone (not sure if both and not sure how many times) before arriving at the cottage. Once at the cottage the postal police informed her of the two phones in their possession so phoning at that time would not have been useful.

I am not sure when Laura became aware of the concern for Meredith. She was visiting her family and not in Perugia until later.

 

[Dan O.]

Because they might not stay on voice mail? If Amanda was (as she said in her email) in a state of "panic" to the extreme that she was:

1) pounding on her door
2) yelling her name
3) looking through her keyhole
4) leaning over another window trying to look into her room

Amanda did all this but didn't bother to call again? Give me a break. I would have called both phones non-stop and Chris, you know you would have too.

How many times did the other roommates call her phones?

After many months of looking at this case, Alt+F4 has come up with what she would do in this situation and now claims that because Amanda didn't do that in 12.5 minutes she must be guilty.

We already know that Amanda knew at this time that both phones were immediately transferring to voice mail. This means that the phone either does not have service or is turned off. Until the phone is turned back on or comes back into service range, calling is going to have no effect. Both require action by the user and will result in the user being notified that there was a missed call. By not wasting time by mindlessly redialing the same number, Amanda is able to perform more potentially fruitful tasks like checking if the boys downstairs have any information, pounding on Meredith's door to wake her up, trying to look into the room, having Raffaele try to force the door and finally calling her mom where she gets the most useful advice to call the police.


Once the postal police arrive at the cottage with Meredith's phones in hand, do you understand why none of the people present would think that calling the phones would be useful?

 

[Justinian2]

I'm sorry that my replies have not been in real time. Now I don't have to wait for moderation...

From page 114 of the translation, we have a quote which shows the inaccuarcies in the determination of the time of death:

[...] the time of death between 21 hours and 30 minutes and 30 hours and 30 minutes prior to the first testing, thus between 20:00 pm and 04:00 am on November 1, 2007 and November 2, 2007.

In other words, the time of death is statistical in nature and follows some curve - like the typical bell shaped curve. The typical bell curve would suggest that there is 70% confidence that the time of death occurred between 10 pm and 2am. That's all. Time of death from the temperature analysis is not sufficiently accurate to place the time of death more accurately.

On the other hand, statistically, there is only about a 15% probability that the time of death was before 10.

 

[Dan O.]

Four questions:

4) Could an expert on the case make a fundamental mix-up on dates, to confuse a pizza receipt from Sunday 4 November with the vigil for Meredith held on Monday 5 November? Wouldn't this be a fairly basic error?

On the 4th, Raffaele consulted with Amanda and then went off on his own to purchase the pizzas while Amanda and her flat mates were escorted back to the cottage to look at the knives. Two large pizzas are more than the two of them would consume so these may have been ready-to-cook pizzas for the next days dinner with friends which Raffaele would have arranged to give Amanda a break from the constant questioning.

 

[Alt+F4]

My gut feeling is that Frank genuinely believes that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. If he gets paid for giving an honest opinion, good for him.

Fair enough.

My gut feeling is that Quintavalle lied on the witness stand in sworn testimony and is partly responsible for Amanda and Raffaele being in jail.

Kind of like Amanda lying and Patrick ending up in jail?

If he got money for being a lying liar he is a disgusting creature who deserves to be castigated.

Is there evidence he was paid? If so, by whom?

 

[Alt+F4]

In other words, the time of death is statistical in nature and follows some curve - like the typical bell shaped curve. The typical bell curve would suggest that there is 50% confidence that the time of death occurred between 10 pm and 2am. That's all. Time of death from the temperature analysis is not sufficiently accurate to place the time of death more accurately.

I think the two strongest pieces of evidence that entire crime was over by 10pm is 1) the cell phone tower ping at 10:13, far from the apartment, and 2) the people who's car broke down and said there was no activity at the apartment while they were waiting for a tow (I think they were there from 10:30 midnight).

 

[Alt+F4]

Indeed. When I plan a daytrip, I'm lucky to get out the house before 1... (I always go to sleep the night before with the best of intentions, though).

Well it appears Amanda thought they were going to spend the whole day out which is one of the reasons she stated she turned off her cell phone - to conserve the battery.

In addition Amanda said at trial she was going to Gubbio "the next morning".

This is what I think happened. After Amanda got the text from Patrick (at 8:18) telling her she didn't have to work it makes perfect sense that she and Raffaele went to her apartment so she could get a change of clothes for the next day's trip. That's the motive for them leaving his apartment and going over to hers. She wasn't carrying a big knife and they were not going over there with the intention of murdering anyone.

 

[Dan O.]

(I've read in various places that she did, but I think this might be a mistake in the newspaper report on Filomena's testimony. She's supposed to have said one of the phones rang and rang, and the other went through to Voicemail, but that sounds suspiciously like what happened to Amanda; I don't think there was time for Filomena to call them between Amanda's phone call to her and Amanda calling the phones, as she'd have to have done for one of them to 'ring and ring').

If Filomena called Meredith's phone it would not have rung. Testimony was given that when Meredith's english phone was found ringing in the garden, the display said that the call was coming from Amanda and then the phone was turned off. The other phone was already forwarding directly to voicemail.

If Filomena had called prior to the Amanda's first call and the phone being turned off, serious questions would need to be raised about what Filomena knew and when.

 

[Alt+F4]

Do you mean the same cell phones the cops came by to tell them they were found and at the police station, are those the 2 phones you want them to callÉ

You do know that the postal police didn't arrive the second RS and AK arrived back at her apartment, right?

If you believe Amanda had absolutely nothing to do with this murder than you must believe that she had no idea that Meredith didn't have her phones until the postal police showed up.

Considering Amanda and Raffaele's conflicting statements as to what occurred between 12:07 (Amanda calls Filomena) and 12:55 (when the Postal Police arrived) it's understandable to be confused.

Amanda says she called Filomena and Meredith from Raffaele's apartment, he said the calls were made at her apartment. She said Filomena's door was closed, he said it was open.