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The Islamic Epic Fail

rocketdodger said:
ORLY?

Pardon me for ... just not believing you.
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pity...then you would be wrong.
none of the local muslim women do.
the past administrator of the local hospital, and their three beautiful daughters don't wear head gear.
the lady who runs the local donair shop does not wear head wear.

i knew several muslim families when i was growing up.
they didn't wear head scarves either.

maybe you just don't know many muslim women.
 
rocketdodger said:
maybe so, but a google image search of "Turkish Women" reveals quite a lot of headwear.

Reason??
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Because a lot of Turkish women choose to wear headwear.
Not sure why that requires 2 question marks.

Your original quote expressed disbelief that any Muslims would be against mandatory head coverings.
I don't, however, know of any members of Islam that don't condone some form mandatory female headwear.
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The fact that head coverings are prohibited in public buildings in Turkey show that you are incorrect in this disbelief.
 
Cavemonster said:
Because a lot of Turkish women choose to wear headwear.
Not sure why that requires 2 question marks.

Your original quote expressed disbelief that any Muslims would be against mandatory head coverings.


The fact that head coverings are prohibited in public buildings in Turkey show that you are incorrect in this disbelief.
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I didn't say no muslims are against mandatory headwear.

I said I have never met one.

Of course, in seven years at two different public universities with 35,000+ students, I probably was only *aware* of the muslim females that *did* have headwear.

I don't doubt that some muslims are against mandatory headwear -- although you say it is public buildings and I heard it was just "government" buildings in Turkey.

But the question remains -- why do so many women in Turkey "choose" to wear headwear? And I use quotes because in my opinion if your culture pressures you to choose option X over Y then it isn't really a free choice, is it?

I don't think Christian or Jewish women have free choice in alot of stuff -- that upsets me -- but at least they don't feel pressured to cover up parts of their head, which is what this thread seems to be about. So there you are.
 
rocketdodger said:
I didn't say no muslims are against mandatory headwear.

I said I have never met one.

Of course, in seven years at two different public universities with 35,000+ students, I probably was only *aware* of the muslim females that *did* have headwear.

I don't doubt that some muslims are against mandatory headwear -- although you say it is public buildings and I heard it was just "government" buildings in Turkey.

But the question remains -- why do so many women in Turkey "choose" to wear headwear? And I use quotes because in my opinion if your culture pressures you to choose option X over Y then it isn't really a free choice, is it?

I don't think Christian or Jewish women have free choice in alot of stuff -- that upsets me -- but at least they don't feel pressured to cover up parts of their head, which is what this thread seems to be about. So there you are.
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In Turkey the greatest cultural pressure on women living in urban centres may well be against wearing a headscarf. A lot of people in the major cities view head scarves as a sign of backwardness. In 2007 when President Gul was selected by government, many were deeply troubled by the fact that the first lady would be wearing a headscarf based on this perception. Head scarves cannot be worn in universities and job choices are severely limited for those who choose to wear them.

Head scarves are often just an expression of identity like many other forms of human fashion.
 
rocketdodger said:
But the question remains -- why do so many women in Turkey "choose" to wear headwear? And I use quotes because in my opinion if your culture pressures you to choose option X over Y then it isn't really a free choice, is it?

I don't think Christian or Jewish women have free choice in alot of stuff -- that upsets me -- but at least they don't feel pressured to cover up parts of their head, which is what this thread seems to be about. So there you are.
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I think you're a bloke, so I'll ask...
Why do you wear trousers instead of a skirt?

There is a chance, of course, that you agree with Eddie Izzard -- who wears what ever he likes. But, most likely, you lack the freedom to wear a strapless dress because of the way your oppressive culture has raised you.

Note that I am not saying that any law prevents you from wearing women's clothing. Eddie gets away with it -- in the UK at least. But it's that "cultural pressure" you refer too. Obviously an awful, awful thing.

Be strong, throw off your chains!
 
Sideroxylon said:
In Turkey the greatest cultural pressure on women living in urban centres may well be against wearing a headscarf. A lot of people in the major cities view head scarves as a sign of backwardness. In 2007 when President Gul was selected by government, many were deeply troubled by the fact that the first lady would be wearing a headscarf based on this perception. Head scarves cannot be worn in universities and job choices are severely limited for those who choose to wear them.
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Here's the story of an Egyptian newsreader:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7702895.stm

Took her 6 years to get her job back, after she started wearing a headscarf in 2002. She says: "When I covered my hair, I didn't lose my ability to read the news."

And Syria has banned the niqab in universities:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/20/syria-bans-niqab-from-universities


Head scarves are often just an expression of identity like many other forms of human fashion.
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Queen Elizabeth II used to wear a headscarf. Not always, but sometimes. She might still do.

ETA: Apparently...., she does!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6960529.ece

Times said:
Royalty Protection Department take note — if the Queen is attempting to travel incognito, it is probably best not to opt for the old headscarf disguise. No one in this country wears Hermès headscarves any more, except for the Queen, three dowager duchesses and a woman in Knightsbridge.
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ETA2: Apparently... she's glamorous! With a picture:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23419618-queen-joins-vogues-glamour-top-50.do

This is London said:
The monarch has been given a nod of approval by style bible Vogue. The magazine praises the Queen Elizabeth for the way she carries off the brogues and headscarf-look at Balmoral.
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The Charnel Expanse said:
Persians are just Italians with weirder sounding names.

Also, the curtain thing... not any more absurd than pretty much any tenet of Mormonism.
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Just that when someone here criticizes Mormonism or Catholicism, there isn't a pack of apologists ready to rush in and explain why he's a bigot for calling out oppressive practices.
 
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rocketdodger said:
Well, I know many members of RCC that don't condone child rape.
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Heres my problem in a nutshell though. If they are members of the RCC, and they attend an RCC church regularly, and tithe, and all the other things that are suggested by being a member of a church, then dont they?

Because the RCC seems to right to the man at the top. They cover it up, protect the perps and give only the least condemnation possible.

The RCC is a business. And business is good. If the financial members of that business dont talk with their feet and their cash the same as they would at any other business they didnt approve of the practices of business wont change. And if people are helping to support the church then they tacitly do support what it supports, all or nothing.

That said, I know several EX members of RCC that dont condone child rape.

As to the head covering for muslim women: My pharmacist here in Phoenix is a Muslim woman. She wears a head scarf.
The fact that she is my pharmacist (and the head pharmacist as well) means that she got an education and a full time job despite those overbearing Muslim husbands. A job that pays well enough that if she really wanted to lose the scarf she could at will, along with the husband if he didn't like it. So, her choice.
 
Polaris said:
Just that when someone here criticizes Mormonism or Catholicism, there isn't a pack of apologists ready to rush in and explain why he's a bigot for calling out oppressive practices.
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I must have missed the comments of those defending oppresive practices.
 
Polaris said:
Just that when someone here criticizes Mormonism or Catholicism, there isn't a pack of apologists ready to rush in and explain why he's a bigot for calling out oppressive practices.
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Well that's probably because most posters here recognise the difference between constructive criticism and bigotry; and one sure sign that you're dealing with someone motivated not with a specific problem with a defined action, but a generalised dislike for a particular race or people is when they write threads with broad-brush titles like "Islamic Epic Fail", or when they say "All Muslims Do This" or "Ok, I may only have noticed the Muslims wearing a headscarf, but that doesn't mean there are Muslim's who don't!" or even "Ok, you've given plenty of examples of a country that doesn't act like that, but still, they're all like that!!"

In fact, using a word like "apologists" for people who've simply noticed certain posters have a long, long history of far-right, jingoistic, and yes bigoted posting about anything to do with Islam or Arabic peoples tends to confirm suspicions. As does their refusing to apply the same broad-brush strokes to other religions, and declare all Catholics child molesters say, and then not being aware of their hypocrisy in calling other posters out for not doing that to Islam either... so you mean they apply a consistently fine brush approach to all religions do you? How dare they! And so... the opposite of that, someone who applies broad-brushes to only one religion is a...?

Go on, just admit it, take ownership of your feelings, and you'll save us all a lot of time and stress; I could for instance wander into the nearest British city this afternoon and take you lots and lots of pictures of the Somali community here, and various Muslims around the place, to show you how almost no one wears the full body covering anyway. I might see a few headscarfs, usually from traditionally desert communities where it was practical to have one to prevent sand-blast damage to hair and face, and still carries some cache today... but with full face showing, and in a variety of fashionable colours...

Or I could link to this handy guide where it lists the history of the current Anti-Mosque fervor;, in particular the role outright racist and lunatic Pamella Gellar has had in pushing the story...

But why bother? Would it make it any more real to you than the links already given to the wider, objective world out there where Islam isn't a monolithic block or experience? Why bother when we'll just be labelled "apologists"? Just don't expect to act like a bigot and not get called on it too.
 
Sideroxylon said:
In Turkey the greatest cultural pressure on women living in urban centres may well be against wearing a headscarf. A lot of people in the major cities view head scarves as a sign of backwardness. In 2007 when President Gul was selected by government, many were deeply troubled by the fact that the first lady would be wearing a headscarf based on this perception. Head scarves cannot be worn in universities and job choices are severely limited for those who choose to wear them.

Head scarves are often just an expression of identity like many other forms of human fashion.
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I am glad to hear things are changing.

And they may indeed be a legitimate expression of identity but the problem is that many women around the world don't have a choice. So when there are immigrants wearing them, things get complicated, because you don't know if it is a legitimate expression or an overbearing husband.
 
Ausmerican said:
As to the head covering for muslim women: My pharmacist here in Phoenix is a Muslim woman. She wears a head scarf.
The fact that she is my pharmacist (and the head pharmacist as well) means that she got an education and a full time job despite those overbearing Muslim husbands. A job that pays well enough that if she really wanted to lose the scarf she could at will, along with the husband if he didn't like it. So, her choice.
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Perhaps, but I think you underestimate the power of upbringing when it comes to adult behaviors. If this woman had it rammed into her brain that as a female she was bound by Islam to cover her head in some way, the whole time growing up, she probably feels very uncomfortable on a subconscious level whenever she is in public without a head scarf.

So what do we call that? She has a "choice" to not wear one, but her programming makes it so she would never make the "choice" not to. Really, what do we call that?
 
FireGarden said:
I think you're a bloke, so I'll ask...
Why do you wear trousers instead of a skirt?

There is a chance, of course, that you agree with Eddie Izzard -- who wears what ever he likes. But, most likely, you lack the freedom to wear a strapless dress because of the way your oppressive culture has raised you.

Note that I am not saying that any law prevents you from wearing women's clothing. Eddie gets away with it -- in the UK at least. But it's that "cultural pressure" you refer too. Obviously an awful, awful thing.

Be strong, throw off your chains!
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Nicely said.
 
FireGarden said:
I think you're a bloke, so I'll ask...
Why do you wear trousers instead of a skirt?

There is a chance, of course, that you agree with Eddie Izzard -- who wears what ever he likes. But, most likely, you lack the freedom to wear a strapless dress because of the way your oppressive culture has raised you.

Note that I am not saying that any law prevents you from wearing women's clothing. Eddie gets away with it -- in the UK at least. But it's that "cultural pressure" you refer too. Obviously an awful, awful thing.

Be strong, throw off your chains!
Click to expand...

Well I think that is a pretty stupid example because not only do women wear trousers all the time but also there are many physical reasons why trousers are superior to skirts and furthermore I can and do wear shorts all the time, exposing more of my body than I would if I were to wear a skirt.

But I understand your point. Please try to understand mine -- cultural pressure is part of being human -- there is nothing wrong with it per se, and it is impossible to escape entirely -- but cultural pressure that orginates in oppression is a part of being human that most of us would like to leave behind. Would you not agree?
 
But when that cultural pressure goes on for so long, it becomes ingrained in the women to dress this way. They are more comfortable.

I work with a woman named Khadija. She is Muslim. Fiercely independant, divorced a garbage husband, raising her child on her own. She is fully Westernized. She wears a head scarf and a direh, and she likes it that way.

She could wear jeans and t-shirts, but she wouldn't be comfortable.

But should I tell her, she's wrong to continue to dress this way if I deem she could be wearing something else?
 
Monkey Ghost said:
But when that cultural pressure goes on for so long, it becomes ingrained in the women to dress this way. They are more comfortable.

I work with a woman named Khadija. She is Muslim. Fiercely independant, divorced a garbage husband, raising her child on her own. She is fully Westernized. She wears a head scarf and a direh, and she likes it that way.

She could wear jeans and t-shirts, but she wouldn't be comfortable.

But should I tell her, she's wrong to continue to dress this way if I deem she could be wearing something else?
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No.

But you can tell her she is wrong to convince her children that they should dress that way.

Get it?
 
No. Who am I to tell a woman from another culture how she should dress her children, what they should eat, what to value in other people?

Who are you?
 
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