The Islamic Epic Fail

[jayh]

Well, yes some do. The same way some orthodox Jewish women make a decision to shave off all their hair and wear a wig, and some secular women decide to keep their breasts covered even in situations like the beach where no men are covering their chests.
..

It's not necessarily just women. Consider Orthodox Jewish men who wear those heavy coats and pants even at the peak of incredible heat waves (not to mention getting important bits cut off their bodies). Or the Sikhs who must wear those turbans EVERYWHERE they go.

Religions impose strange burdens on people and they often willingly accept them.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

So while I may be a little disappointed, saddened and angered by the treatment of one gender of muslims by another I am far more disturbed that in Western democracies, in 2010, we have people that make excuses for what appears to be a worldwide child rape problem in the Catholic Church and the sexual abuses of children like many of the 'wives' in Jeffs little community.

What happened in Jeffs community is not representative of the rest of the USA. The same can't be said for the mistreatment of woman in Muslim countries. It's much more wide spread and even state sanctioned. I just read an article today about how the Taliban, under Sharia law, executed a pregnant women for adultery...they gave her 200 lashes then let her linger for a few days before shooting her in the head three times. I might add that, according to the article, there was no evidence against her, only accusation. Oh, and the male counter part? NO charges! He's probably thanking Allah, as we speak, that he was born male.

As far as the RCC, I agree if you are referring to the (non)action of the RC communities themselves. But here at the JREF, at least, they have not gotten any special treatment (unless I missed something).

 

[ugot2bekidding]

so the women who claimed to be happy wearing their burka were deluded?

Maybe they don't understand what true happiness is. Ignorance is bliss, but would you settle for that? I don't (or I try not to).

 

[bikerdruid]

Maybe they don't understand what true happiness is.

it is not our place to question whether they understand the concept of happiness or not.
maybe you don't understand what true happiness is.

 

[Cavemonster]

Maybe they don't understand what true happiness is. Ignorance is bliss, but would you settle for that? I don't (or I try not to).

So...
You understand what they need better than they do? And the women complaining about the ban on burqas in France or on headscarves in Turkey should just shut up and wear what you think they should... because that's real freedom?

 

[DC]

Maybe they don't understand what true happiness is. Ignorance is bliss, but would you settle for that? I don't (or I try not to).

can be claimed about everyone joining ANY religion.

have those that like SM never had real good sex without violence and whips?

 

[Ausmerican]

As far as the RCC, I agree if you are referring to the (non)action of the RC communities themselves. But here at the JREF, at least, they have not gotten any special treatment (unless I missed something).

Not so much the RC communities as the communties surrounding the churches in question. If Wal-Mart had this widespread a problem of the same type do you think the local Walmart would still be attracting local shoppers? Or even still be open? Let alone building new outlets?

When I voiced a mild criticism of the RCC I was told by my wifes aunt that, as I was not a member, I was not allowed to judge. My response was that the members are the ones that should be judging and they are not. They follow a leader that pontificates on the moral way to live life while living in a palace and tacitly condoning child rape.

The JREF gives no special treatment it is true. But we are minority views on many things here. At some stage it seems like freedom of religion was taken a little too seriously. It is not a freedom that should extend any furthur than any the freedoms that the general public enjoy.
But it is rare that you hear of these priests being arrested or jailed. Rare that church property is sued out from under them. Surprisingly rare that retribution of a more physical kind is sought by parents of victims. And all of this is in modern secular democracies that should have no reason to tolerate anything so heinous.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

They really are.

Persians are just Italians with weirder sounding names.

Also, the curtain thing... not any more absurd than pretty much any tenet of Mormonism.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

we should free them from their oppression whether they like it or not?
isn't that much like christian missionaries 'freeing' natives from their heathen religions?

I never said anything about forcing someone to give up their Burhka, whether they like it or not. I am critical of laws and conventions that force it on them, however. I mainly had a problem with using the word 'liberating' to describe something designed to hide the appearance of half of the population.

I don't think its like Christian missionaries. They were just (much of the time, forcibly)imposing their belief system on others. That's the complete opposite of what I'm talking about, which is personal freedom. And many Muslim women do not have the freedom to refuse to wear it. Also, I think the small minority that enjoy wearing it are doing a disservice to the rest of womankind by kowtowing to this male-centric world view that woman should not be seen in public.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

it is not our place to question whether they understand the concept of happiness or not.
maybe you don't understand what true happiness is.

My 'delusion' comment was in reference to the person that said that not having to worry about personal appearance was liberating. Except her option was to hide her appearance behind a shroud. My point was that this isn't liberating at all since you're still worried about your appearance. All you're doing is hiding the problem instead of freeing your self from it. I wasn't questioning her happiness, but her reasoning. I agree with you that I have no right to tell someone that their 'happy' fails...happy is happy (deluded or not).

 

[ugot2bekidding]

So...
You understand what they need better than they do? And the women complaining about the ban on burqas in France or on headscarves in Turkey should just shut up and wear what you think they should... because that's real freedom?

Can you show me where I said they should be forced to wear what I think they should? Also show me where I said they should ban the Burhka.

 

[Cavemonster]

Can you show me where I said they should be forced to wear what I think they should? Also show me where I said they should ban the Burhka.

Can you show me where I said you said that?

 

[rocketdodger]

I don't know where you are going with the comments on converts. Do you reckon that applies to the many that do so in Western countries?

Most of them, yes.

 

[rocketdodger]

We have every right to criticize their bad stuff. But their 'bad stuff' is done, in the main, to at least nominally consenting adult women.
We have more than a right, but rather a responsibility, to do more when it comes our own faults simply because we are supposed to be more progressive and enlightened.

So while I may be a little disappointed, saddened and angered by the treatment of one gender of muslims by another I am far more disturbed that in Western democracies, in 2010, we have people that make excuses for what appears to be a worldwide child rape problem in the Catholic Church and the sexual abuses of children like many of the 'wives' in Jeffs little community.

These are not nominally consenting adults. And they are not in villages in the middle east. When the RCC child rape problem is brought up it is often ascribed to 'a few bad apples'. These bad apples appear to be in the Catholic Church in pretty much every country that it exists in and recently the Pope said it was a problem that was as bad as ordaining a woman. So there is your misogyny as well.

Why is it that all Muslims gat tarred with the same brush when we discuss things like burquas but it is a few bad apples when we are discussing child rape in the RCC?

Well, I know many members of RCC that don't condone child rape.

I don't, however, know of any members of Islam that don't condone some form mandatory female headwear.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Persians are just Italians with weirder sounding names.

I'll thank you not to confuse Italians and Persians like that, they are each wonderful in their own special way.

Also, the curtain thing... not any more absurd than pretty much any tenet of Mormonism.

The Mormons and the Muslims have a similar doctrine against partaking of alcohol, which as I see it is another good reason to seek another religion, if one wishes one.

 

[Cavemonster]

Well, I know many members of RCC that don't condone child rape.

I don't, however, know of any members of Islam that don't condone some form mandatory female headwear.

In majority Muslim Turkey, the wearing of headscarves in govenrment buildings is banned. In law drafted by and ratified by many Muslims.

 

[bikerdruid]

I don't, however, know of any members of Islam that don't condone some form mandatory female headwear.

i don't know any muslim women that wear any form of headwear.
i have known many muslim families over the years.

 

[rocketdodger]

In majority Muslim Turkey, the wearing of headscarves in govenrment buildings is banned. In law drafted by and ratified by many Muslims.

maybe so, but a google image search of "Turkish Women" reveals quite a lot of headwear.

Reason??

 

[rocketdodger]

i don't know any muslim women that wear any form of headwear.
i have known many muslim families over the years.

ORLY?

Pardon me for ... just not believing you.

 

[Sideroxylon]

maybe so, but a google image search of "Turkish Women" reveals quite a lot of headwear.

Reason??

Because the prohibition is limited to civil servants and students at schools and unversity. I reckon the law infringes on freedoms of expression and should be changed.