Merged Obama enters GZ Mosque debate

[FireGarden]

extremists muslims are probably watching the reaction to this mosque with absolute glee. They win when we decide that the values and freedoms our society is built on are less important than bigotry, intolerance, and petty revenge.

We look like a nation of idiots.

No. You don't look like a nation of idiots.
To me it looks like a vocal minority are getting told what's what by people who value freedom of religion.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

The teabaggers are going to go into meltdown over this.

The ones that cry about honoring the Constitution and gov't not encroaching on personal freedom?

Why would they be opposed to this?


I've said it before and I'll say it again - the right wing in this country loves its freedom unless it's being enjoyed by anyone black, brown, poor, gay or non-Christian.

 

[dudalb]

I am not sure this is going to be that political costly to Obama. The people who will be upset by it oppose him anyway.

 

[dudalb]

extremists muslims are probably watching the reaction to this mosque with absolute glee. They win when we decide that the values and freedoms our society is built on are less important than bigotry, intolerance, and petty revenge.

We look like a nation of idiots.

THat point cannot be made enough. If you wanted to make the US look bad in the Muslim world, and give the extremists a talking point, you could not do better.
The only thing better would be a few actual bombings or burnings of Mosques, and I got a sick feeling that is going to happen. Look at what is going on in Tennesee. There is not even the sheet of "Wrong Place for a Mosque". THere it is Muslims have no place in America.

 

[Neally]

I agree with him and I'm glad he said it.

He and you are in the minority opinion. Nearly 70 percent of people feel an Islamic center near ground zero is disrespectful, even deliberately provocative.

 

[dudalb]

I'm sorry to say I agree with your assessment. It was brave but pointless: political suicide in front of a nation of fickle, short-tempered, five-minute-memory voters.

God, you don't have much respect for the AMerican people, do you?
Or maybe you want to join that guy here who want to restrict voting rights to those with College Degrees, so that only "the Intelligent" should vote?

 

[Unabogie]

God, you don't have much respect for the AMerican people, do you?
Or maybe you want to join that guy here who want to restrict voting rights to those with College Degrees, so that only "the Intelligent" should vote?

It remains to be seen. We have a great capacity for generosity and wisdom, but also a weakness for demagoguery and tribalism. I suspect that even though a majority of people do "oppose" the mosque, most polls will continue to show support for their right to build it and Obama's support of that right will prove to be courageous and correct.

But I could be wrong...

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

He and you are in the minority opinion. Nearly 70 percent of people feel an Islamic center near ground zero is disrespectful, even deliberately provocative.

"Nearly 70% of people" will get over it when they realize nothing bad is going to happen [unless you count the almost inevitable acts of vandalism at the hands of Islamophobe neanderthals].

 

[johnny karate]

I wonder if the Christian churches within a 2.5 mile radius of any of these places were shut down. Otherwise it would feel disrespectful, even deliberately provocative.

 

[hgc]

...
Now I don’t think they should be allowed build the mosque that near to ground zero either, but the point he made about religious freedom is 100% correct.
...

I'm having trouble reconciling the first and second clauses in this sentence. Are you saying that Obama's point about religious freedom, with which you agree 100%, allows for disallowing the building of this mosque?

 

[dudalb]

It remains to be seen. We have a great capacity for generosity and wisdom, but also a weakness for demagoguery and tribalism. I suspect that even though a majority of people do "oppose" the mosque, most polls will continue to show support for their right to build it and Obama's support of that right will prove to be courageous and correct.

But I could be wrong...

I was speaking more about the comments about the intelligence of the Amercan voters.

 

[dudalb]

It remains to be seen. We have a great capacity for generosity and wisdom, but also a weakness for demagoguery and tribalism. I suspect that even though a majority of people do "oppose" the mosque, most polls will continue to show support for their right to build it and Obama's support of that right will prove to be courageous and correct.

But I could be wrong...

I support Obama, but I am not sure it was that courageous. The people who are going to be upset by it are opposed to Obama anyway.
I am pretty sure everything Obama is doing right now is aimed at the midterm elections, and Maybe he felt this stand would not alienate anybody who was not already alienated, and shore up his standing with the progressive, many of whom are making noises about staying home in November or voting for the Green party candidate.

 

[theprestige]

It was brave but pointless

Brave how? I'll give you pointless: The only way he could have said anything less meaningful is if he'd said nothing at all.

Of course building a Mosque is permitted; we all know that. The real debate is over whether building this mosque is a good idea, and whether or not the project is being planned and carried out in good faith. On that topic, Obama's remarks are totally irrelevant. If it's bravery to stick to the truisms everybody already knows, while avoiding the controversy itself, it's Sir Robin's bravery.

 

[Thunder]

I agree with Kedo that the actual building of the mosque will never happen for security reasons.

Jews plan on building a new synagogue in eastern european city x.

local anti-Semites and Neo-Nazis protest the proposed building, claiming it honors the "crucifixion of Jesus and the victims of Judeo-Bolshevism".

city hall of town x decides that while Jews have the right to build a new synagogue, its better that they not do it, out of "security reasons".

new synagogue does not get built. Anti-Semites and Neo-Nazis win.

 

[theprestige]

extremists muslims are probably watching the reaction to this mosque with absolute glee. They win when we decide that the values and freedoms our society is built on are less important than bigotry, intolerance, and petty revenge.

I've never really understood this theory. What do they win, exactly? Do they win a round in some cosmic game of sociology beer pong? A stack of metaphysical chips in philosophy poker?

What, exactly, are their strategic goals, and how does the outcome of this controversy, one way or the other, further those goals (and who are "they", anyway--are "extremist muslims" a monolithic group with a single coordinated strategy for achieving a common goal)?

I mean, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me that all the big extremist muslim action lately has been happening outside the U.S. Because outside the U.S., these active extremist groups have a real chance of seizing power for themselves.

The Taliban actually has a shot at ruling Afghanistan. Their compatriots across the border have a real hope of imposing their will to a substantial extent on Pakistani society. Al-Shabab in Somalia recruits actively in the U.S., but not to terrorize the U.S. They want soldiers for a war that has meaningful victory conditions.

To be honest, I really have no idea if 9/11 actually gained Al Qaeda anything in the long run, or even in the short run, other than the thrill of pulling off such a feat. It seems to me like they'd be much better off today if they'd dedicated that decade of planning, those resources, those committed soldiers for the cause, to cementing their hold on Afghanistan and destabilizing Pakistan.

 

[Thunder]

The real debate is over whether building this mosque is a good idea, and whether or not the project is being planned and carried out in good faith.

I see no debate. I see only baseless accusations formed out of bigotry and irrational fear.

 

[Thunder]

I wonder if the Christian churches within a 2.5 mile radius of any of these places were shut down. Otherwise it would feel disrespectful, even deliberately provocative.

I wonder if any Roman Catholic churches have been shut down near kindergartens and pre-schools. You know, just to be on the safe side.

 

[theprestige]

Jews plan on building a new synagogue in eastern european city x.

local anti-Semites and Neo-Nazis protest the proposed building, claiming it honors the "crucifixion of Jesus and the victims of Judeo-Bolshevism".

city hall of town x decides that while Jews have the right to build a new synagogue, its better that they not do it, out of "security reasons".

new synagogue does not get built. Anti-Semites and Neo-Nazis win.

You know what would have been brave? If President Obama had used this analogy to explain his position on the GZ mosque debate.

 

[Thunder]

You know what would have been brave? If President Obama had used this analogy to explain his position on the GZ mosque debate.

he did say something about how Synagogues and RCC churches used to face opposition in the USA.

like I said, he is a very eloquent man. if he says the right things, he just might be able to turn this around.

or at the very least, put the Mosque-haters in a very very bad light. one that will shame anyone who is stupid enough to support them.

part of me now thinks its good Obama spoke on this now, months before the November elections. better to take on such issues in a position of offense, not defense...as it might have been in a few months when GOPers would DEMAND he take a stand or be accused of "supporting terror".

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

Someone want to take up the challenge of explaining how anti-Islamic sentiment in the U.S. differs from anti-Jewish sentiment in pre-WWII Europe?