Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Massei report

I am grateful to the volunteers at PMF for translating the Massei motivations report. I urge everyone to read it and to compare relevant passages with the appeals documents. I have just started this process, and I am finding it very enlightening.

 

[piktor]

If he is correct and Meredith did eat a few mushrooms and had a bit of wine or beer when she got home then the attack couldn't have happened shortly after 9. How long might that take to have this snack, 10 minutes? So now the time of the attack is pushed back to 9:15 making the timeline even shorter.

It is clear to me that Meredith had "a snack" after she arrived at her flat.

Her small intestine had content in its "last turn", meaning the final end of the intestine. The rest of the small intestine is empty.

If her small intestine was almost empty and it was a cold evening, she would be hungry when she got home.

The report does not say the time of this "last meal" but obviously it was close to the time of death.

Meredith used her phone to access Abbey Bank after 10 PM. She might be occupied with her meal and glass of wine/beer at this time.

 

[RoseMontague]

We have had a lot of discussion about Meredith's cell phone records and how it seems to indicate an earlier TOD. The Massei report proceeds to give the courts reasoning that this is not considered significant.

But the reconstruction [of events] proposed did not persuade the Court.
Nothing compels [us], among the circumstantial evidence available, to consider that the assault took place in the minutes between 21.58 and 22.00 of 1.11, and not rather merely moments of relaxation during which Meredith Kercher, still alone in the house and probably just lying on her own bed, was absent-mindedly playing with the mobile phone in her hand.

The reasoning here is that since the time of death is later (in the court's opinion) than the time frame as presented by the defense phone expert, the defense expert must be wrong and that Meredith must have just been playing with her phone and that one call shortly after 10PM that had never connected to Meredith's flat before must just be an anomaly and it was shown that that particular mast could connect to Meredith's bedroom even though it had not happened in the past. In addition the court considers that it proves that the phones were at Meredith's place at least until that time, not on the way to the garden as demonstrated by the defense expert.

Here we have another example of the court justifying flawed reasoning on one piece of evidence by using previously flawed reasoning on a completely different piece of evidence. It still reeks, in my opinion. My opinion that the court did not render a fair judgment has not been swayed by the translation of the report.

 

[RoseMontague]

And the sexual assult, when do you think that happened? My belief is that he stabbed her because she resisted his advances so the whole thing being over in 5 minutes is highly unlikely...unless more than one person was involved.

If the report is correct and Meredith had alcohol in her system (her blood alcohol was 0.43) that means she had a drink when she got home, as her friends said everyone only had water with the pizza. There was no unfinished drink in the apartment or broken drinking glass so she had enough time to not only finish her drink but put the glass away. A reasonable amount of time to get the drink, pour it, drink it, wash the glass and put it away is about 15 minutes.

So I contend she was attacked no earlier than 9.20. The sexual assult and stabbing probably took about another 20 minutes. I think it took this long because I strongly believe she put up a struggle ("characteristics of non-cooperation of the young woman") and also because of all the bruises.

That is assuming she had a drink when she got home and not before she had dinner rather than after. The Michelli report indicates Meredith was out drinking and dancing basically all night (until 4:30AM) before (might as well say same day). Does anyone here know how long a lot of alcohol could remain in the system (this would be somewhere around 16-17 hours from that time)? Was there alcohol in the cottage would be another question I would ask? If not and no empties in the trash, then she would have had that drink before she got home.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

No country code

Meredith used her phone to access Abbey Bank after 10 PM. She might be occupied with her meal and glass of wine/beer at this time.

Whoever operated the phone did not use a country code for the bank. It seems odd that Meredith would somehow forget this. Just as it seems coincidental that the cell phone would connect to a different tower on the very same night...

Thar she blows?

 

[christianahannah]

It is clear to me that Meredith had "a snack" after she arrived at her flat.

Her small intestine had content in its "last turn", meaning the final end of the intestine. The rest of the small intestine is empty.

If her small intestine was almost empty and it was a cold evening, she would be hungry when she got home.

The report does not say the time of this "last meal" but obviously it was close to the time of death.

Meredith used her phone to access Abbey Bank after 10 PM. She might be occupied with her meal and glass of wine/beer at this time.

There was alcohol content in her system, correct? It was testified by her friends that no alcohol was consumed during dinner (also, movie watching and later dessert?). Is it assumed Meredith had a drink after returning to the flat?

How does alcohol affect digestion, along with other external factors, such as exercise, fear, etc.?

 

[Chris C]

It is clear to me that Meredith had "a snack" after she arrived at her flat.

Her small intestine had content in its "last turn", meaning the final end of the intestine. The rest of the small intestine is empty.

If her small intestine was almost empty and it was a cold evening, she would be hungry when she got home.

The report does not say the time of this "last meal" but obviously it was close to the time of death.

Meredith used her phone to access Abbey Bank after 10 PM. She might be occupied with her meal and glass of wine/beer at this time.

So what your saying is since their is food in the last turn of her small intestine that was the meal she had at her friends house. Which means you are claiming she died at 2am? Except there was pizza still in her stomach. Which means the food in the last turn couldn't have been the pizza she ate. The autopsy clearly states that it was pizza in her stomach. You can research it all you want. All the reseach i've run across states it takes no more than 3 hours for your stomach to digest food and move it to your small intestines. The coroner even points this out in his time off death when he says 2 to 3 hours.
MULTIPLE WITNESS testify that Meredith ate pizza at 6pm. So either you claim these witnesses are lying and now are suspects or they have given the correct time of that meal in which she ate pizza.

Either the phones where leaving Meredith's house around 10pm, or Meredith resurrected for 10 minutes to run to that garden to use her phones, dropped them, then returned home and died again. There is no way around this. The prosecution claimed that Knox/Sollecito turned off their phones so they couldn't be tracked. So now that phone records places Merediths phones in a different location at the ToD, you have to use that same logic with Merediths phones that you use with Knox/Sollecito. The logic is that Knox/Sollecito turned off their phones so a different cell tower wouldn't pick them up at Meredith's apartment. So using that same logic, if Meredith's phones are picked up on a different tower then you have to assume they are no longer at Meredith's apartment at that time.

 

[Chris C]

That is assuming she had a drink when she got home and not before she had dinner rather than after. The Michelli report indicates Meredith was out drinking and dancing basically all night (until 4:30AM) before (might as well say same day). Does anyone here know how long a lot of alcohol could remain in the system (this would be somewhere around 16-17 hours from that time)? Was there alcohol in the cottage would be another question I would ask? If not and no empties in the trash, then she would have had that drink before she got home.

Actually I think it takes like 10 to 15 minutes for your body to absorb the alcohol into your blood stream.
Most people I know use the 1 hour per beverage to sober up.
When my company put us in hotels for meetings, we are told to stop drinking 8 hours prior to showing up for work activities.

 

[LondonJohn]

That is assuming she had a drink when she got home and not before she had dinner rather than after. The Michelli report indicates Meredith was out drinking and dancing basically all night (until 4:30AM) before (might as well say same day). Does anyone here know how long a lot of alcohol could remain in the system (this would be somewhere around 16-17 hours from that time)? Was there alcohol in the cottage would be another question I would ask? If not and no empties in the trash, then she would have had that drink before she got home.

Am I misremembering, or wasn't there significant controversy over some of Meredith's post-mortem blood alcohol readings, with a high reading turning out to be a mistake? If this 0.43 is a standard BAC % measurement (I haven't checked), then this is equivalent to extreme alcohol intoxication - the standard drink-drive threshold is 0.08.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

alcohol

Am I misremembering, or wasn't there significant controversy over some of Meredith's post-mortem blood alcohol readings, with a high reading turning out to be a mistake? If this 0.43 is a standard BAC % measurement (I haven't checked), then this is equivalent to extreme alcohol intoxication - the standard drink-drive threshold is 0.08.

Frank has a post on this. There was an initial error, IIRC. I doubt that 0.43 is the standard BAC measurement, but I don't know what it is.

"Alcohol level: As I thought, there was a mistake. Nobody said "I made that mistake," but it seems that the blood sample was kept in a container with some residual alcohol, which is why the second analysis was abnormal. So, the rate of 0.43 found by the University of Perugia is confirmed. Meredith was not drunk."

 

[Alt+F4]

Am I misremembering, or wasn't there significant controversy over some of Meredith's post-mortem blood alcohol readings, with a high reading turning out to be a mistake? If this 0.43 is a standard BAC % measurement (I haven't checked), then this is equivalent to extreme alcohol intoxication - the standard drink-drive threshold is 0.08.

You are right, 0.43 would be extremely drunk, to the point of unconsciousness. The report states, "a blood alcohol level of 0.43 grams/litre", so perhaps it's not based on standard BAC?

The report states that, "he indicated the percentage of alcohol detected by Dr. Lalli and equal to 0.43 as compataible with consumption of one beer or glass of wine" and also states that Meredith was not intoxicated.

 

[Chris C]

I think all of you are getting confused. If Meredith's blood alcohol level was .43 she would probably have been dead before she was stabbed. No the actual statement someone posted read this way.

According to statements by Dr. Lalli, based on the toxicological tests, the presence of ethyl alcohol in a concentration of 0.43gram/litre was found

Now if they are refering to .43 grams/litre of alcohol in her blood, thats would equal something like .043 % BAC. If her blood alcohol was that high she had 1 drink. Now if they are talking about .43 grams/litre of alcohol in stomach you talking about 1 or 2 sips.

 

[Chris C]

There was alcohol content in her system, correct? It was testified by her friends that no alcohol was consumed during dinner (also, movie watching and later dessert?). Is it assumed Meredith had a drink after returning to the flat?

How does alcohol affect digestion, along with other external factors, such as exercise, fear, etc.?

Well if we are to believe that meredith didn't drink until after she returned to the flat then the alcohol would have had no effect on the digestion of the pizza. Considering it was suppose to be just about to enter her small intestines when she arrived home. According to her friends dinner time frame.

 

[Alt+F4]

Whoever operated the phone did not use a country code for the bank. It seems odd that Meredith would somehow forget this. Just as it seems coincidental that the cell phone would connect to a different tower on the very same night...

Thar she blows?

I agree, I don't think it was Meredith using the phone at 10pm, I think it was Rudy.

 

[RoseMontague]

Am I misremembering, or wasn't there significant controversy over some of Meredith's post-mortem blood alcohol readings, with a high reading turning out to be a mistake? If this 0.43 is a standard BAC % measurement (I haven't checked), then this is equivalent to extreme alcohol intoxication - the standard drink-drive threshold is 0.08.

The 0.43 was given as grams per liter and there are approx 1060 grams in a liter of blood. The BAC is a percentage measurement, my guess this is about 0.004 but math is not my strong point.

 

[katy_did]

If he is correct and Meredith did eat a few mushrooms and had a bit of wine or beer when she got home then the attack couldn't have happened shortly after 9. How long might that take to have this snack, 10 minutes? So now the time of the attack is pushed back to 9:15 making the timeline even shorter.

This is actually a contradiction from Massei which is pointed out in Raffaele's appeal. If you turn to page 364 of the PMF version of the report you'll see:

[Meredith was] in an entirely normal condition having consumed neither alcohol nor drugs as shown by Dr Lalli and confirmed by the experts appointed by the Preliminary Hearing Judge.

I think the alcohol reading was determined to be due to contamination.

 

[LondonJohn]

So what your saying is since their is food in the last turn of her small intestine that was the meal she had at her friends house. Which means you are claiming she died at 2am? Except there was pizza still in her stomach. Which means the food in the last turn couldn't have been the pizza she ate. The autopsy clearly states that it was pizza in her stomach. You can research it all you want. All the reseach i've run across states it takes no more than 3 hours for your stomach to digest food and move it to your small intestines. The coroner even points this out in his time off death when he says 2 to 3 hours.
MULTIPLE WITNESS testify that Meredith ate pizza at 6pm. So either you claim these witnesses are lying and now are suspects or they have given the correct time of that meal in which she ate pizza.

Either the phones where leaving Meredith's house around 10pm, or Meredith resurrected for 10 minutes to run to that garden to use her phones, dropped them, then returned home and died again. There is no way around this. The prosecution claimed that Knox/Sollecito turned off their phones so they couldn't be tracked. So now that phone records places Merediths phones in a different location at the ToD, you have to use that same logic with Merediths phones that you use with Knox/Sollecito. The logic is that Knox/Sollecito turned off their phones so a different cell tower wouldn't pick them up at Meredith's apartment. So using that same logic, if Meredith's phones are picked up on a different tower then you have to assume they are no longer at Meredith's apartment at that time.

The matter at the end of Meredith's small intestine would have been the remains of whatever she had eaten for lunch (or possibly even breakfast). Chyme typically makes its transit through the main small intestine (i.e. excluding the duodenum) between 4 and 10 hours after initial ingestion. This means that if Meredith were killed at around 9.30pm, the chyme at the end of her small intestine was likely ingested at some time between 11.30am and 1.30pm.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is clear to me that Meredith had "a snack" after she arrived at her flat.

Her small intestine had content in its "last turn", meaning the final end of the intestine. The rest of the small intestine is empty.

If her small intestine was almost empty and it was a cold evening, she would be hungry when she got home.

The report does not say the time of this "last meal" but obviously it was close to the time of death.

Meredith used her phone to access Abbey Bank after 10 PM. She might be occupied with her meal and glass of wine/beer at this time.

It's your stomach which controls the release of hormones which communicate hunger via the hypothalamus. Meredith's stomach was around half full at her time of death, so her hypothalamus would not have been giving her sensations of hunger when she arrived home.

I also think it's very far-fetched to suggest that the reason Meredith might have misdialled and cut off the calls to her UK voicemail and UK bank was that she was trying to eat/drink at the same time.

 

[christianahannah]

Excerpt of Chris C's quote:

So what your saying is since their is food in the last turn of her small intestine that was the meal she had at her friends house. Which means you are claiming she died at 2am? Except there was pizza still in her stomach. Which means the food in the last turn couldn't have been the pizza she ate. The autopsy clearly states that it was pizza in her stomach. You can research it all you want. All the reseach i've run across states it takes no more than 3 hours for your stomach to digest food and move it to your small intestines. The coroner even points this out in his time off death when he says 2 to 3 hours.
MULTIPLE WITNESS testify that Meredith ate pizza at 6pm. So either you claim these witnesses are lying and now are suspects or they have given the correct time of that meal in which she ate pizza.

I am not so sure that the autopsy clearly stated pizza (perhaps, some of its ingredients) was in Meredith's stomach. This it says from Massei Motivations:

In the autopsy, Dr. Lalli noted the following: "...oesophagus containing a fragment apparently a piece of mushroom (page 46) ...stomach containing 500 cc alimentary bolus, green brown in which were recognizable caseosis (mozzarella?) and vegetable fibre ... empty duodenum, small intestine containing digested material in the last loop ..." (pages 47 and 48 of report).

Is the term "caseosis" referring to mozzarella, a dairy product (Meredith ate apple crumble with ice cream half way through watching the movie, not immediately after dinner) or a physical process which was observed in the stomach?

Also, is one able to differentiate between vegetable fibre and fruit fibre (I am not sure what ingredients were on the pizza - her friends testified to no mushrooms - as written above, Meredith ate apple crumble).

And lastly, if there were contents in the last loop of the small intestine what does this mean as far as time of death, Meredith's meals, etc.?

 

[RoseMontague]

This is actually a contradiction from Massei which is pointed out in Raffaele's appeal. If you turn to page 364 of the PMF version of the report you'll see:



I think the alcohol reading was determined to be due to contamination.

That 0.43grams/liter was given in the newly translated PMF Massei report so I believe it is correct but just such a small amount as to be insignificant. It may be the result of her drinking until the early morning hours that day.