The "Nakba" Myth

mortimer said:
Who exactly is denying the suffering of the Palestinians? You might also want to define what you mean by "suffering". Nearly everybody in the world suffers to some extent.
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Yes, I've got a really bad cold at the moment....
 
mortimer said:
Who exactly is denying the suffering of the Palestinians?
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check the title of this thread.

hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have lost their lands and their homes. they now live in squaller, in refugee camps throughout the Arab world.

these people have indeed suffered...at the hands of BOTH the Israelis and the Arabs.
 
JihadJane said:
Yes, I've got a really bad cold at the moment....
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Join the club.

I don't know if anyone is saying Palestinians don't suffer. It's more about who started the chain of events that led to their suffering and who keeps it going. We find it odd that Palestinian suffering gets all the attention when worse suffering goes in all the neighboring Arab countries.
 
By the way, another point of similarity between the 9/11 truthers' conspiracy theory and bit pattern's conspiracy theory is the enormous disparity between the alleged "evidence" and the claims made.

9/11 truthers use a newspaper article from 15 years ago saying "The USA could have stopped Bin Laden if it wanted to!" as all the evidence they need to "prove" a years-long conspiracy to deliberately let him blow up the twin towers for propaganda purposes. bit pattern uses a newspaper article from 15 years ago saying "Israel's didn't want to deal with moderate Palestinian X!" as all the evidence he needs to "prove" a decades-long conspiracy to deliberately let the PLO kills thousands of Israelies for propaganda purposes.

But such accusations are, in both cases, needless to say, standard-issue accusations nobody takes particularly seriously, let alone as "proof" of anything. "The government screwed up about X, it could have done it right if it wanted to!" is just about every newspapers' daily headline every day. "The other side doesn't want peace!" is the repeated accusation in every round of "peace" talks in the middle east. Right now, for example, both the Palestinians and the Israelies are accusing each other of avoiding direct peace talks.

Whatever the truth of the accusations, is this "proof" the Palestinians are deliberately and secretly aiding Kahane's "let's kick out all the Arabs" to come to power so as to make themselves look like victims, or that if such an unlikely event happens, then whatever Kahane's thugs do after coming to power is all the Arabs' fault because of this alleged "conspiracy"?

Conversely, is this "proof" Israeli is secretly aiding Hamas and Islamic Jihad so as to let them blow as many Israelies up as possible so as to look like victims, or that if, say, Hizbullah takes over the west bank and starts blowing up Israelies en masse it would all be Israel's fault due to "conspiracy" "proven" by a newspaper interview by some irate politician about Israel "not wanting peace" from two weeks ago?

Of course not; no more than the fact that last week somebody put a headline like "the government could have dealt better with the oil spill!" in the paper is "proof" that it is all a massive government conspiracy to kill all wildlife so as to force the UN to take over the USA after legally declaring it a disaster area, or something.

This whole theory is ridiculous, and clearly merely intended to try and find some way to blame the PLO's murders on the victims.
 
Virus said:
I don't know if anyone is saying Palestinians don't suffer. It's more about who started the chain of events that led to their suffering and who keeps it going. We find it odd that Palestinian suffering gets all the attention when worse suffering goes in all the neighboring Arab countries.
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Don't really think that Parky's arguing anything along those lines, but rather another attempt to associate those who argue against the many exaggerations in the international media regarding the Palestinians, especially in Gaza, their strife, and the misplaced responsibility for the displaced Palestinian Arabs during this conflict to those of deny the holocaust.

Simpleton guilt by association in a box. Add in a (misspelled) German term and you have a tinge of glazed troll.
 
Skeptic said:
By the way, another point of similarity between the 9/11 truthers' conspiracy theory and bit pattern's conspiracy theory is the enormous disparity between the alleged "evidence" and the claims made.

...............
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The sort of stuff Noam Chomsky does.

Israel has nothing against the PLO, except that the PLO calls for independence. It's not terrorism with the PLO -- the PLO dropped terrorism in the early 70s. In fact, the Israelis made it very clear that the big problem with the PLO is that they are calling for negotiations.
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http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/199510--.htm
 
Israel has nothing against the PLO, except that the PLO calls for independence.
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"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel" -- Yasser Arafat.

Chomsky must have missed that 'un.
 
you blaim the Palestinians for their suffering
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Most of us caused ourselves, with all probability, more damage and suffering through our own behavior and shortcomings than our enemies ever did.

If someone commits a crime and is in jail for it, he no doubts suffers, but that hardly means he's not to blame.

When you start a war of aggression, such as the war of 1948 against the Jews, you are responsible for the suffering caused even if you cause them to yourself.

When you are offered a state in 2000 and instead once again start a war under the belief that the Israeli offer means it's about to collapse and it's time to push the "staged plan" to the next stage, you are responsible for the suffering caused to your side as well.

What is true is that certainly the Palestinians have not been the only causers of their own suffering. The main fault lies with the Arab states, not the Palestinians -- who deliberately keep the Palestinians in refugee camps to the fourth (by now) generation solely to use them as a demographic time bomb against Israel.
 
Skeptic said:
When you start a war of aggression, such as the war of 1948 against the Jews, you are responsible for the suffering caused even if you cause them to yourself.
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is that what it was? a "war against the Jews"?

600,000 Jews in Palestine at the time, out of around 12 million total around the world (many of whom did NOT support Zionism), and yet the 1948 war was against us all.

fascinating. I guess that's sorta like saying the Afghan and Iraqi war were "wars against Islam"
 
This naqba, as Ephraim Karsh put it, was a 'self-inflicted catastrophe' for the main reason of poor leadership, both local and regional from the beginning of the last century up until today. This has been mentioned several times already in this thread, but somehow no adequate rebuttal given.

Just ordered a book by Karsh titled Palestine Betrayed. It apparently provides more insight on how the brunt of the Palestinian people, ie 'less-educated class', by sheer majority supported the two-state solution compared to a bit over half of the upper class ruling party in the 1990's. Its follows the era from the beginning 20th century up until today. Should be interesting compared to the painful Tom Segev book, The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 years

Would suggest Karsh's book as well for those interested in how this naqba actually came out to be and how it could have been averted.
 
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Skeptic said:
When you start a war of aggression, such as the war of 1948 against the Jews, you are responsible for the suffering caused even if you cause them to yourself...
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The incessant Arab campaign against the 'Jewish national revival', as Karsh put it, started almost three decades prior to the 1948 War of Independence.

The Arab league and local Palestinian Arab leadership's aggression was not an impulsive, brief period that spontaneously led to war, it was an organized campaign of obliteration (albeit some of the planning simply blew up in their faces, ie fear-mongering and fantastic stories of massacres/rampant rape/etc. by the Jews led to fleeing instead of fighting). No compromise, no acceptance of any form of a two-state solution.

The very same message conveyed by the Arab league and Palestinian leadership in the Khartoum resolution of 1967...
 
Racist Zionism

Lets put it this way.

One has to believe a person can be born a "jew" only if one believes in Judaism, one is of the Mosaic confession. If one does not believe then a membership by birth does not differ from being an Aryan by birth. As most all people who claim to be Jews are also Aryans this is hardly a revelation.
 
Matt Giwer said:
Lets put it this way.

One has to believe a person can be born a "jew" only if one believes in Judaism, one is of the Mosaic confession. If one does not believe then a membership by birth does not differ from being an Aryan by birth. As most all people who claim to be Jews are also Aryans this is hardly a revelation.
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Eh? Most all Jews are Persian you say?

How about we don't put it this way. This derail doesn't even make sense.

So you actually the Matt Giwer or just a poser?
 
bigjelmapro said:
Eh? Most all Jews are Persian you say?

How about we don't put it this way. This derail doesn't even make sense.
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If you don't like Aryan use the currently popular term Indo-European. You can use Caucasian if you like. It is a rather straight forward concept.

So you actually the Matt Giwer or just a poser?
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Why would anyone want to pose as me?
 
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