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Wikileaks damage to alternative 9/11 theories

From the prior post:



To look deeper into whether my web site is a "idiotic nut case web site of woo", I am listing one of the more important facts from this site that shows the information on this web site, where it came from and what interpretation I made from this information. The material is transcribed directly from US government web sites and sources, without edit or modification other than being shortened to fit this post:

The following is found in the Account of FBI Agent Ali Soufan: page 66-67 THE NEW YORKER, JULY 10, 2006. This information was given to Lawrence Wright by FBI Agent Steve Bongardt, FBI Agent Ali Soufan's assistant on the Cole bombing investigation, and was vetted by John Miller, information officer at the FBI.

"In November, 2000, a month after the Cole bombing, Soufan sent the agency (the CIA) the first of several official queries. On Soufan's behalf, the director of the F.B.I. sent a letter to the director of the C.I.A., formally ask*ing for information about Khallad, and whether there might have been an Al Qaeda meeting somewhere in Southeast Asia before the bombing. The agency said that it had nothing. Soufan trusted this response; he thought that he had a good working relationship with the agency."

From the DOJ IG report: Pages 238-239:

"In the midst of the Millennium period concerns in late 1999, the NSA analyzed communications associated with a suspected terrorist facility in the Middle East linked to Al Qaeda activities directed against U.S. interests. The communications indicated that several members of an "operational cadre" were planning to travel to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, in early January 2000. Analysis of the communications revealed that persons named Nawaf, Khalid and Salem were involved. In early 2000, the NSA analyzed what appeared to be related communications concerning a "Khalid." The NSA's reporting about these communications was sent, among other places, to FBI Headquarters, the FBI's Washington and New York Field Offices, and the CIA's CTC. At the FBI, this information appeared in the daily threat update to the Director on January 4, 2000."

From the 9/11 Commission report, page 181:

“The Counterterrorist Center,(CTC CIA was headed by Cofer Black) had briefed the CIA leadership on the gathering in Kuala Lumpur and the information had been passed on to Berger, the NSC staff and to Director Freeh and others at the FBI.”

It is clear that Louis Freeh, Director of the FBI, knew about the al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur that took place in January 2000, and even the first names of the several of the people who were to attend this meeting because the CIA had given him this very information in January 2000, before FBI Agent Ali Soufan’s request. In fact the CIA had photographs of Khalid al-Mihdhar, Nawaf al-Hazmi and even Walid Bin Attash (the mastermind of the Cole bombing) that had been taken at that meeting, and even knew at this time that they had been actually planning this al Qaeda attack on the USS Cole at this meeting. This was because Soufan had already given the passport photo of Bin Attash to the CIA Yemen station earlier in November and had identified Bin Attash as the master mind of the Cole bombing. When the CIA compared this photograph to the one they had taken at Kuala Lumpur, they immediately knew that Bin Attash had been at Kuala Lumpur planning the Cole bombing with Mihdhar and Hazmi and that if this came out the CIA would look culpable in this attack.

Soufan was told that the CIA had none of this information. Freeh not only withheld this same information from FBI Agent Soufan, but even knew that the CIA had actually given him the very information Soufan was asking for. When Freeh withheld this information from Soufan, his own lead Cole bombing investigator, in November 2000, this was clear evidence that FBI Director Louis Freeh, and the CIA, had criminally obstructed the FBI investigation of the Cole bombing by withholding the critical information on the Kuala Lumpur meeting. Had this information been passed to the Cole investigators, they could have had the enough time to have prevented the attacks on 9/11.

Had Freeh told Soufan that the CIA had given him this information in January 2000, that Khalid, Nawaf, and Salem , thought to be Nawaf’s younger brother, and all long time al Qaeda terrorists connected to the east Africa bombings, were all traveling to an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur in January 2000, Soufan might have prevented the attacks on 9/11.

Soufan and the Cole bombing investigators already knew that Walid Bin Attash had flown to Bangkok, on January 8, 2000 from Kuala Lumpur. By checking the flight manifest for this flight, Soufan would have found Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi sitting right next to Bin Attash, using one of his aliases, on this flight, since they already had had Mihdhar and Hazmi's first names.

Soufan and the Cole bombing investigators also already knew that Fahad al-Quso had been blocked from continuing his travels in Bangkok while trying to deliver money to Bin Attash in Kuala Lumpur, and that he had stayed at the Washington Hotel in Bangkok. Had Soufan and the Cole bombing investigators checked the Washington Hotel they would have found Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi had both stayed at this hotel, the week after January 8, 2000 just before they flew to the US.

It is highly likely that Soufan could have saved the lives of the almost 3000 people killed on 9/11 had Freeh given him the very information he was asking for and which he was in possession of. Unfortunately this was not to be and this criminal obstruction by Freeh and the CIA of the Cole bombing investigation and the murder of 17 US sailors has never been explained.

See... here is the issue.
What did members of the US government know, and when did they know it.
There is very credible information that shows that many parts of the US intelligence KNEW something was happening. Unfortunately there is nothing to show it was a concerted effort to LET it happen.

It would really help if you looked into the great works like Spying Blind, and the Looming Tower. They outline how much was known and how it was juggled and lost in the bureacracy and political turf wars inside the FBI.

What you need to show is that the US government LET IT HAPPEN. There is NO evidence that they purposefully did so. There is plenty of evidence that there were some seriously incompetent folks who had NO idea how to protect the US from terrorism....

So instead of trying to spin a LIHOP .... just recognize for what it was. FUBAR and SNAFU.
 
OOPS!

The information from idiotic nut case web sites of woo are owned by the US government, in particular one of the most important web sites is for the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the web site for the 9/11 Commisson report and the web site for DOJ IG report.

Why don't you tell the US government that their web sites are "idiotic nut case web sites of woo".

I am putting together the list of these web sites and the people involved now, and will shortly provide you all of the web site links and even almost all of the names of the people who took part in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place and even provide you with the reasons they did this.

Feel free to build a case. Piece by piece using the US government websites taht you seem to understand better than the rest of us.

Provide links, page numbers and quotations. Show this web of evil.
 
This is just your bias showing.

If I remember correctly the CIA wasn't sharing information with the FBI and they lost track of 2? high level suspects when they entered the US.

Why is it the conspiracy theorists always seem to be racist or communist? They either expect the government to keep track of "all them there terrorist types" or they expect the government to rewrite the laws and take away civil liberties and freedom on a whim.

The shortest way to an Orwellian policed state is to listen to conspiracy paranoids. Thankfully they're few in number and don't actually vote.

Yes.

The books Shadow Factory and Spying Blind outline exactly what happened and how it happened.

In Shadow Factory they start talking about this FUBAR on page 16 through page 20. It is very indepth and well researched.

The CIA lost track of 2 known terrorists who came into the US who were later then hijackers on 9/11. They dropped them and lost them.

It is also funny because both of them were LIVING with an FBI informatnt who THOUGHT his handlers KNEW they were there.
(this part starts on page 22 and runs through the next 5 chapters).

LIHOP is the only scenero in which truthers have ever made me wonder.... but there is NO EVIDENCE that the government KNEW and LET IT HAPPEN. There is plenty of evidence that the many different parts of the government KNEW and dropped the ball through incompetence, political infighting, and turf wars.

PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE.
 
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According to Assange these documents were available to “hundreds of thousands” of soldiers and defense contractors around the world.

If 9/11 were facilitated by a small cabal then their information would not be available to hundreds of thousands of soldiers and defense contractors around the world.

Oh JJ.

Fine. Please provide an alternative theory of what happened on 9/11. Include all of the relevant individuals necessary inside of this "small cabal."

We have done this dance before, and I loved it when you provided your "one person" theory. It made my day and made me laugh my ass off.

Provide a coherent theory that explains what happened, and who was involved.
 
I think the really important questions are being ignored here. The issue is not that there was a coverup and who covered it up. What I presume most here are questioning is who did these things that were covered up? For example, I want to know,

1. Where was the large amount of thermite and other explosives made? I am told this thermite has special properties and could not be made in someone's basement. The making of it would involved highly trained experts. There would be a limited number of people with the knowledge to make this. Who are they?

2. Who transported it to the WTC buildings? I would like the name of a firm and drivers.

3. How was the thermite and other explosives put into place. It is often claimed that the controlled demolition of a building is a difficult task taking weeks of preparation. Answers to this question have not included methods that demolition experts believe would destroy a building. We need a believable explanation.

4. Who were the people that put the thermite and other explosives in place? It's not just that they did or even that they could have done it (which I doubt). I want to know who THEY are. Give them names. I know who the Watergate burglars are. Who are the WTC thermiters? Once again, this use of thermite to demolish buildings seems to be a unique skill not fully understood in conventional demolition circles. There would only a limited number of people who have this skill and they should be easy to identify.

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I'll even make you a bet. If you can give me credable answers to these questions, I will become a Truther. I will give up my life and join the Truth Crusade. I will seel my house, leave my wife, quit my job and join AE911 as a full-time volunteer. I will donate the proceeds from the sale of my house to AE911.

I swear this is a real promise.

Scott. That isn't fair. You are really asking for too much (it is some sort of logical fallacy IIRC, but I can't remember the name).

It won't take me too much to shift to trutherville.
1. Provide me a coherent theory of the events of the day. A full theory with names and faces not some "shadow cabal."
2. If it was any form of nanothermite/thermite/thermate, then show me thermite (Or any derivative) cutting through verticle steel columns. It should be easy.
3. Then show me the #2 across multiple steel columns all supporting the same load and have the whole thing collapse in a relatively short time... (say withing 2 to 5 seconds).

That is it. I'd be willing to embrace trutherism if they could just show me 2 of the 3.
 
Scott. That isn't fair. You are really asking for too much (it is some sort of logical fallacy IIRC, but I can't remember the name).

It won't take me too much to shift to trutherville.
1. Provide me a coherent theory of the events of the day. A full theory with names and faces not some "shadow cabal."
2. If it was any form of nanothermite/thermite/thermate, then show me thermite (Or any derivative) cutting through verticle steel columns. It should be easy.
3. Then show me the #2 across multiple steel columns all supporting the same load and have the whole thing collapse in a relatively short time... (say withing 2 to 5 seconds).

That is it. I'd be willing to embrace trutherism if they could just show me 2 of the 3.

I think you're a borderline Truther. That it could be done doesn't mean that it was. If they want my house, they have to show me that it was done. Asking questions after 9 years don't cut it. They have to give me some names.
 
LIHOP is the only scenero in which truthers have ever made me wonder.... but there is NO EVIDENCE that the government KNEW and LET IT HAPPEN. There is plenty of evidence that the many different parts of the government KNEW and dropped the ball through incompetence, political infighting, and turf wars.

Yah, this is the real reason to be pissed off at the US government. The CIA and the NSA were following these guys movements and phone calls in Yemen and they still managed to get VISA's from the state department. Then they spent something like 2 years in San Diego without the FBI being notified.

The icing on the cake though was Mihdhar and Hazmi staying in a Holiday Inn about a mile from the NSA headquarters.

This is the fine tuned super secret agency that pulled off the most elaborate hoax in human history to ensure $100 barrels of oil. :rolleyes:
 
...
The icing on the cake though was Mihdhar and Hazmi staying in a Holiday Inn about a mile from the NSA headquarters.

That's straight out od Loose Change 2, and I always thought that Dylan was treating me as a fool for selling of this stupid argument. Did I not grasp anything there? Does the NSA look into everybody's pants who come within a few miles of headquarters?

This is the fine tuned super secret agency that pulled off the most elaborate hoax in human history to ensure $100 barrels of oil. :rolleyes:

Huh?
 
I am putting together the list of these web sites and the people involved now, and will shortly provide you all of the web site links and even almost all of the names of the people who took part in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place and even provide you with the reasons they did this.
Can you be a little more precise than "shortly"? Gimme a date.
 

Just a comment on the disconnect Truthers have from reality. The allegations that somehow the FBI or CIA could carry out a Controlled Demolition on the WTC with empty drone planes and fool the entire World is hysterical. They can't even coordinate their own agents to do what they are supposed to let alone a secret black op task force of 1000's.
 
I am putting together the list of these web sites and the people involved now, and will shortly provide you all of the web site links and even almost all of the names of the people who took part in allowing the attacks on 9/11 to take place and even provide you with the reasons they did this.

I dare you. And don't give me a list that says Dick Cheney and George Bush. I want to know who made the nano-thermite and where this was manufactured. I want to know how it was transported in huge amounts to the wtc and who did it; who actually drove the truck. I want to know who carried it through the WTC and how they did this. And while you're at it, how long this took and where they got their lunch.

Tell me how the FDNY didn't clue into this on 911 or name me the names of fire fighters and police who keeping your secret.

Otherwise I've heard it all before and so has everyone here.
 
I think you're a borderline Truther. That it could be done doesn't mean that it was. If they want my house, they have to show me that it was done. Asking questions after 9 years don't cut it. They have to give me some names.

Scott.

I am just a skeptic who dislikes the US government. I disliked what they did in the aftermath of 9/11 so much I moved out of the US.

I detested the neocons and GWB in the 2000 election, and was sure that GWB had "pulled a fast one" to get to be president.

So maybe I would be sympathetic to trutherisms... after all if they were right, it would confirm my hatred of the neocon agenda, and my dislike for the US government.

Unfortunately, there is NO proof that it was an inside jobby job. So I have to defend a group I wouldn't cross the street to piss on if they were on fire. And the cognative dissonance is a bitch. :p

I don't demand perfection though. Just show me that it was POSSIBLE. I really am sympathetic to the IDEA that the 'big bad evil gubmint' could/would do something like 9/11. Look at all the other things they have done, the people they have hurt intentionally (syphallis testing, exposing folks to fallout and the rest).

I just wanted to point out that you seem to be doing a trutherism of the demand for perfection logical fallacy (like asking for 100% recreated flight 77/flight 93, or asking to see 110 floors pancaked from the towers).
I don't demand perfection... just show me the plausibility and ability to have done it. I really am not asking for much.
 
That's straight out od Loose Change 2, and I always thought that Dylan was treating me as a fool for selling of this stupid argument. Did I not grasp anything there? Does the NSA look into everybody's pants who come within a few miles of headquarters?
Well when I was about 5 miles away from their headquarters, everything inside my pants was "inspected" by a very cute redhead who told me she was a spy... I enjoyed that NSA inspection so much I married her....

:cool:
 
Oh JJ.

Fine. Please provide an alternative theory of what happened on 9/11. Include all of the relevant individuals necessary inside of this "small cabal."

We have done this dance before, and I loved it when you provided your "one person" theory. It made my day and made me laugh my ass off.

Provide a coherent theory that explains what happened, and who was involved.


Grow up.

Stay on topic.
 
Grow up.

Stay on topic.

We are staying on topic.

You strayed into the "small cabal" territory. So please provide a coherent theory that uses a "small cabal." It should be easy.

It should be fantastically easy to lay it out.

Why can't any truther EVER do that? (besides for the wonderful antisemites who blame it all on the jews, we never get anything near a coherent theory....)
 

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