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Ed Autism, vaccines & China

Burning Beard

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Burning Beard
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
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540
ETA: I've mis-spelt "China" in the heading, my bad! (If a mod would be so kind to fix this I'd be most appreciative)

Hi guys.

I've done a search and I can't find anything relating to this here, so here I go.

This is just from a conversation I'm having on the facebook with a cousin of mine about vaccines. He's the anti-vaxer, not me.

Re vaccines; China never had autism in it's kids until they started using them. The adjuvants they use to make them more powerful are the problem ie squaline.
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I'm up with the play on the squaline issue, I know it's been deemed safe. He's not given me any links supporting this supposed correlation so I'm flying blind here trying to shoot his argument down, so to speak. Is anybody aware of a study or data supporting this idea or debunking this idea?

Many thanks.

BB
 
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I recommend doing a PubMed search. No doubt you'll find an article or study on the subject there. Some of them you have to pay for I believe, but you can still read the abstracts if you want. :) I hope I helped.

By the way, I'm not sure if you've listened to QuackCast, but the host did an episode on vaccines which was really good.
 
Okay, you make squalene in your liver, it is a precursor to cholesterol, and used in stuff that leaks out your pores to keep your skin supple. All it is used for in vaccines is to hold the vaccine (antigen portion) in your body longer so you get a more effective natural immunity against the disease, this is also so LESS vaccine is needed per dose in many cases.

There is no evidence there was no autism in China before vaccinations and diseases in general were around. Antigens are not the cause of autism or we'd all have it.
 
Thanks for the responses guys. Heh, we're also locking horns over aspartame now too... ugh, it's a can of worms I shouldn't have opened - I don't like arguing with family!
 
I remember when I was trying to explain to my stepmother the accupuncture is all placebo and doesn't have any real benefits to speak of. She refused to listen to me, stating that I'm only 19 and I don't know anything. I mean, common! What crap! So because she's in her thirties, she must no everything right? :rolleyes: She believes that accupuncture cured her friend of cancer. :eek: I got the same thing from my mum and her friend. People can be so hypocritical. :rolleyes: They all go on how that it "worked" for them so it must work. Can you see the fault in the logic there? :jaw-dropp
 
China's not had autism until vaccines? What bull pucky. It's mind boggling what people believe on face value.

A lack of data does not equal a lack of autistic children.

Autism organization in China helps those without hope
China does indeed have individuals with autism, although the exact ratios are far from exact as the Chinese have only “officially” recognized autism as of the 1980s and have not made a concerted effort to measure that segment of the population. The World Health Organization estimates somewhere between 600,000 to close to 2 million children in China have autism. That number, however, could be significantly greater since the government is not actively seeking to “find” those with autism. Some other professionals estimate the number of autistic children is more like 2 to 7.8 million in number.
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As for when China started vaccinating children, are these people seriously suggesting China didn't vaccinate their children until the 80s? That's a very bigoted attitude at a minimum. China was the first or second country to ever vaccinate anyone. (India and China vaccinated people 100 years before the West did.). The history of vaccines in the Western world started with the use of cow pox to inoculate against small pox a century after the Chinese.

History of vaccines
Early forms of inoculation were developed in ancient China as early as 200 B.C.[4] Scholar Ole Lund comments: "The earliest documented examples of vaccination are from India and China in the 17th century, where vaccination with powdered scabs from people infected with smallpox was used to protect against the disease.

The breakthrough came when a scientific description of the inoculation operation was submitted to the Royal Society in 1724 by Dr Emmanual Timoni, who had been the Montagu’s family physician in Istanbul. Inoculation was adopted both in England and in France nearly half a century before Jenner's famous smallpox vaccine of 1796.[15]
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Pasteur was next with rabies and anthrax vaccines in the 1800s.
 
Don't forget who is making the claims...he is, therefo the burden of proof is on him. Also, don't forget that anecdotal evidence is the poorest form of evidence. He is the one making hte outrageous claims, i t is his job to provide the evidence to back up his claims.

TAM:)
 
Re vaccines; China never had autism in it's kids until they started using them. The adjuvants they use to make them more powerful are the problem ie squaline.
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China has never had any homosexuals either, and the 1989 massacre of the students is a fabrication of anti-Communist propagandists.

Try giving her this. It probably won't help, but you never know.
Another one on aspartame. He's got one on mercury and chelation therapy, too.

I don't like arguing with family!
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Ask yourself if you should in the first place. Friends and family are valuable, and it's easier than you think to destroy relationship. Pick your battles. Are your family members actively refusing to vaccinate children, or are they merely going around thinking stupid things? If it's the latter, ask yourself if it's worth it to damage your friendships with them, taking into account that it can be very hard to change peoples' minds once they have made up their minds.
 
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I think the squalene claims are red herrings.

Before getting anywhere NEAR discussing that part, challenge them on the assertion that "there was never autism in China until..."

It's completely unsupportable. And when the premise crumbles, so does the whole claim.
 
T.A.M. said:
Don't forget who is making the claims...he is, therefo the burden of proof is on him. Also, don't forget that anecdotal evidence is the poorest form of evidence. He is the one making hte outrageous claims, i t is his job to provide the evidence to back up his claims.

TAM:)
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Yep, I went into the ins & outs of anecdotes.

I wrote quite a lengthy rebuttal and he pretty much backed off when he realised I had more than just a passing interest in conspiracies and pseudoscience.

We nearly got into a climate debate too, but I said I'm just not going to go there.

Ugh, then the same evening an old friend started posting antivax stuff... followed by David Freaking Icke. Someone's going to get hidden from my facebook news feeds methinks.

Thanks for the links everybody!
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Ask yourself if you should in the first place. Friends and family are valuable, and it's easier than you think to destroy relationship. Pick your battles. Are your family members actively refusing to vaccinate children, or are they merely going around thinking stupid things? If it's the latter, ask yourself if it's worth it to damage your friendships with them, taking into account that it can be very hard to change peoples' minds once they have made up their minds.
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Yeah this battle kind of just fell in my lap.

My status update was something to the effect of, "Snopes.com - please check this site before forwarding me emails." After a few comments from other friends (all in favour of what I was saying) I said "If I believed everything I read in emails I'd never leave the house for fear of the government trying to kill me with chemtrails or aspartame." Then it went pear-shaped from there, but he's a mellow guy so it didn't get too heated.

The other friend (who I mentioned in the above post) is a raving loon. Lovely person, just stuck in spiritual, organic, David Icke la-la land. She posted some antivax garbage last night that riled me a bit (I didn't take the bait) - her own mother has spent her entire life in a wheelchair because of polio! Go figure.
 
I think the squalene claims are red herrings.
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Well, yes -- the only question you should be asking yourself is "are vaccines safe" and "do they work". Statements like "If you think it's safe to inject children with known neurotoxins..." really get on my nerves.
 
Eos of the Eons said:
Antigens are not the cause of autism or we'd all have it.
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I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but bogus is bogus. Your statement is like saying "Peanuts are not the cause of anaphylactic shock or we'd all have it." The strongest statement I think you can support this way would be "not the sole cause," and I think it would be better to simply avoid this line of argument altogether.
 
bokonon said:
Your statement is like saying "Peanuts are not the cause of anaphylactic shock or we'd all have it."
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While I agree that perhaps that may not be the best argument, your analogy sucks as a rebuttal. Eos of the Eons's statement is more aking to saying "Air does not cause drowing, otherwise we'd all be drowned." EVERYONE, with no exceptions, on this planet has antigens in their body. FACT. Yet the anti-vax pro-disease nutters would call antigens toxic and whatnot in their paranoia.
 
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bokonon said:
I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but bogus is bogus. Your statement is like saying "Peanuts are not the cause of anaphylactic shock or we'd all have it." The strongest statement I think you can support this way would be "not the sole cause," and I think it would be better to simply avoid this line of argument altogether.
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Nach. There is no evidence that antigens cause SOME people autism but not others either. Antigens are, well, ANYTHING, and not just anything causes autism. Autism would then have to also be caused by just catching chicken pox or measles, or breathing in dandelion fluff, or eating peanuts. We know though, that genes are involved, and the cause is not just something as simple as an immune response that we all get all day long to antigens. Peanuts do cause an overactive immune response in some people who have allergies, but people born with allergies are not allergic because of peanuts, it's because their immune systems are overactive.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Well, yes -- the only question you should be asking yourself is "are vaccines safe" and "do they work". Statements like "If you think it's safe to inject children with known neurotoxins..." really get on my nerves.
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Totally, and those so called "neurotoxins" are present in higher levels at birth in kids than they'd ever get from a life time of vaccines.
 
Hopefully this isn't a thread derail, mod's, feel free to split if you think it's necessary.

The same cousin has come back.. arghghgh! For some reason he's decided to tackle the aspartame agrument with a pro-sugar story.

This time with this study: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/197265.php#opinions

He argued that sugar doesn't cause weight gain... yes, *facepalm*

New research from Queen Margaret University, Edinburgh(1), shows that sugary drinks, consumed in moderate quantities, do not promote weight gain, carbohydrate craving or adverse mood effects in overweight women when they do not know what they are drinking.
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All it seems to conclude is that sugar is bad for you only if you think it is. :boggled:
Then when I read the bottom it appears that the study only lasted four weeks - hardly a good length of time to monitor weight gain!
 
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