Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Kevin_Lowe said:
Also, Alt+F4, you've only expressed incredulity about timelines where Meredith is killed shortly after 9pm and Rudy leaves the building around 10pm.

You have not identified any hard evidence that indicates a later time of death that might be taken to contradict the autopsy evidence. If you are adamant that Rudy needed helpers to get everything done in an hour, that doesn't magically make Knox and Sollecito his helpers. In fact if those two were provably over at Sollecito's house on the computer at the time, that just means that Rudy's helper(s) had to be other people, right?
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There is no reason Rudy would have needed helpers to kill Meredith. Most sex killers operate alone.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
Also, Alt+F4, you've only expressed incredulity about timelines where Meredith is killed shortly after 9pm and Rudy leaves the building around 10pm.
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If you believe the cell phone tower call evidence then there is no other timeline other than 9:05 to 10:00.

You have not identified any hard evidence that indicates a later time of death that might be taken to contradict the autopsy evidence.
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Those of you who think AK and RS are 100% innocent should get your notes together. What time do you think the attack took place? As for the time of death, no one can say for sure. Could have been anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour after the fatal stab.

If you are adamant that Rudy needed helpers to get everything done in an hour, that doesn't magically make Knox and Sollecito his helpers.
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Any evidence that anyone other then the two of them were involved in the murder with Rudy?

In fact if those two were provably over at Sollecito's house on the computer at the time, that just means that Rudy's helper(s) had to be other people, right?
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If you turn your computer on and run a program does that you mean you are in your home in front of the computer?
 
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Kevin_Lowe said:
Believe it or not on some mornings I get up, find a towel, use the toilet, have a shower, pick out clothes, get dressed, make coffee, make breakfast, drink the coffee, eat the breakfast, check my email, pack a bag, put my shoes on, leave, lock the front door and head out to work all in an hour.
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Except during that same hour you didn't also pull a knife on a woman, rip off her pants, sexually assult her, and stab her multiple times.

For an untrained person wrestling a larger, stronger opponent, based on my experience at judo and Brazilian jujitsu, even a minute is a very long struggle. If you are not very fit and don't know what you are doing you run out of gas frighteningly quickly. The struggle doesn't necessarily take much time at all.
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Are you really, really going to try to compare judo and Brazilian jujitsu with someone struggling for their life? Really? Your argument is that weak?

I'd say it could have been done by one person in a minute or two, easily, but even if it took ten minutes it doesn't render the rest of the timeline anything like impossible.
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You really think that Meredith could have been disrobed, sexually assulted and stabbed multiple times in a minute? No.

Since when is her sister an expert on what Meredith would actually do in a life-or-death situation?
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Since when are you? Her sister knew the type of person she was and what her personality would dictate in a crisis situation. Do you have siblings? I do and know how one would react when threaened vs. the other.

You're just wrong, and you shouldn't make these sorts of things up if you have no relevant knowledge or evidence.
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Odd, coming from someone who thinks they know more about Meredith than her own family did.
 
Malkmus said:
Please cite where anyone has ever implied Rudy was "the model of efficiency". You might be thinking of PMF where he is regarded as a martyr on the path to becoming a saint.
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Both Kevin and John think that a 50 minute time window is more than enough for Rudy alone to have committed the murder and done everything else.

As for what goes on at PMF, try to keep up Malkmus, I've already stated that I don't read that site and the reason why.
 
Chris C said:
The police say Knox/Sollecito have an alibi up to 9:15. However, computer evidence on 1 of sollecito's computers shows activity on at least 1 computer until 9:46.
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What exactly does "computer activity" mean? Just that the computer was on and/or connected to the Internet? If so, that means the computer was active, it doesn't mean that anyone was behind the keyboard. Did the the police use a keystroke logger to trace actual human interaction with the computer during the time in question?

As for a struggle, Meredith had 40+ bruises. She had black hairs in her fingernails consistant with someone from African Origin. Neither knox or sollecito ancestry is from Africa. None of the bruises where on her wrists, which means she wasn't restrained. There where bruises around her mouth to show someone covered her mouth from behind to keep her from screaming. She had two puncture wounds in her neck that could not have been made by the knife the prosecution said killed Meredith. She has a slash across her throat that could have been made my nearly any sharp knife, box cutter, scissors. Therefore the 2 people held her arms out while a 3rd person slashed her throat doesn't fit. The only theory that fits, was she was killed by someone that was from behind her. While he was stabbing her, she grabbed at him with her hands and got some hair.
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If this is true it didn't happen in just a few minutes.

As for Meredith arriving as late as 9:15. How accurate was the time on the cameras, they said proved it was Meredith. The time was off the next day when the police showed up. I've seen some of those pictures and they are terrible. Did they have a perfect ID?
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I think most would agree that she walked through the door at the earliest 9:00, the latest 9:15.

How can someone that is in the ToD window have a rock solid alibi? Im not saying the girl that walked meredith home did the deed. I'm just saying Knox's alibi is stronger than hers.
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It's my understanding that all the British girls had strong alibis. I could be wrong.

Staying and fighting a Male thats attacking you will just lead to the poor women getting beaten, raped, robbed and killed.
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Your wife is right. Meredith fought against a male attacker and she ended up getting beaten, sexual assulted, robbed and killed.

I have been in more than 20 fights since turning 18. And by fights i mean just fists. No fight I was in with another man lasted more than 2 minutes either way. Do you honestly think a women would fare better?
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Women (yeah, I'm one of them) don't fistfight. They scratch, kick, bite, twist, squirm, pull hair. They don't fight fair, this is why they fight longer. I've taught high school for 15 years and have much more experience than you on how people (male and female) fight.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
The stabbing preceded the removal of her pants and the sexual assault.

The bloodstains show what happened. He cornered her in her room, threw her to the floor, and stabbed her in the throat while she was on all fours in front of her wardrobe. After she was unconscious or dead, he dragged her body several feet, put a pillow under her buttocks, and removed most of her clothing. We don't know exactly what he did sexually, but his DNA was found inside her vagina, and everything else about the crime scene suggests a sexually motivated homicide.

This all transpired over a time frame that was more than 10 minutes, but probably not much more than half an hour. At some point, he cleaned up in the bathroom, and then he went back into her room. Before he left, he removed the quilt from the bed and spread it over her body. He probably sat on the edge of the bed, with the bloody knife at his side, while he went through her purse. He tossed a receipt from a movie theater onto the quilt covering her body. He left the purse next to the knife-blade imprint on the bed. He also left a towel spattered with blood at the foot of the bed. And he left a trail of bloody shoe prints that start in the room and proceed down the corridor toward the exit.
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Even if this is correct you left out him:

1. Taking on and off his sneakers (and socks?) to leave the bloody footprint on the bathmat (why the heck would he have gone barefoot after the murder?)

2. Going into Amanda's room and taking her lamp (for reasons that makes no sense).

3. Pressing buttons on one of Meredith's phones around 10.

4. Taking the time to figure out which key was for the bedroom door, locking it without turning around then figuring out which key was for the front door.
 
LondonJohn said:
If you're going to pull incorrect "facts" out of thin air, and add in things which are completely tangential in order to try to bolster your case, I really can't be bothered debating with you any more.
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My facts are not incorrect John but you don't have to debate me anymore. There is an ignore function on this forum. Enjoy the rest of your summer.
 
Ok If i remember correctly Meredith had pizza to eat that afternoon. The friends claim it was around 6pm. They autopsy said pieces of her meal still remained in her stomach and her small intestine was empty. Which means the digested food hadn't passed from her stomach to her small intestine. After analizing the stomach contents the coroner said that the victim died 2 to 3 hours after that meal.
The prosecution decided to ignore these results and use the body temperature that was unrealiable since the victim had been dead longer than 24 hours. They changed the original body temperature data to reflect a new ToD to fit the prosecutions theory. However, no matter how much you change the body temperature ToD, one constant remains. The food that Meredith digests at pretty much the same rate.

Here is an article, that actually talks about pizza in your stomach.
http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/stomach-contents-as-a-means-of-evidence.html
 
LondonJohn said:
Ermmmm....I'd be very grateful if you could point out to me where I stated that Meredith was dead at 9pm? If you read what I said properly, you will see that I stated that the autopsy findings appear to put the time of death at between 9pm and 9.30pm. This is totally different to what you're saying, and makes me shake my head somewhat in amazement at your powers of logical deduction.
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Your post said that you believe that the only compatible time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30 when everyone agrees that the attack could not have started until at least 9:05. You are very wrong.
 
Alt+F4 said:
Even if this is correct you left out him:

1. Taking on and off his sneakers (and socks?) to leave the bloody footprint on the bathmat (why the heck would he have gone barefoot after the murder?)

2. Going into Amanda's room and taking her lamp (for reasons that makes no sense).

3. Pressing buttons on one of Meredith's phones around 10.

4. Taking the time to figure out which key was for the bedroom door, locking it without turning around then figuring out which key was for the front door.
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I would remove the lamp from the equation. Amanda had been spending nights at Raffaele's place, and Meredith may have borrowed the lamp without Amanda noticing it.

Somebody cleaned up using the bidet. Take a look at these pictures:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bidet01.jpg
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bidet02.jpg

You can see that the stains were made with diluted blood or bloody water. So was the footprint on the mat. I don't think Guede was walking around barefoot after the murder. I think he removed his right shoe for a few moments while cleaning himself up.

With regard to the phone, yes, he pushed some buttons on her phone around 10 pm, after the murder.

Ditto the keys. He locked her bedroom door and let himself out the front, and her keys were never found.
 
Someone seems to have forgotten that Rudy himself stated that he arrived at the cottage before Meredith.

Rudy mentions a lot of things that he claims he did that seems to be an accounting for evidence that he may have left behind. For instance, if Rudy approached the cottage through public streets he could have been seen so he provided an innocent explanation for why he was on the street in that vicinity at that time.

Rudy talks about falling to the floor both in the hall and in the kitchen. Rudy's initial claim was that he tripped over his pants that had fallen down while he was backing away from a bushy haired knife wielding stranger. But Rudy had time to finish the paper work for his last project. Would it have taken that much more effort to buckle the belt when he left the bathroom? Rudy probably did fall where he said he did. But there was no bushy haired stranger. He is likely to have encountered Meredith while looking for an escape and her 110% effort was enough to fell Rudy twice giving her a chance to flee to her bedroom.

Something Rudy doesn't explain is how his DNA got on the cuff of her sweatshirt, how Meredith received a large contusion on the back of her head or why there is a dent in the wall above Meredith's bed with blood and embedded hairs. If Rudy got ahold of Meredith's arm, swung her backwards over the side of the bed and her head hit the wall with enough force to leave the dent, she isn't going to be putting up much resistance afterwards.
 
Kestrel said:
There is one here, but unfortunately the camera time stamp has been cropped.
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Well according to this article meredith walked past that camera at 20:41. Not 2105. Thats an extra 19 minutes. Which means the attacker had over an hour. Of course if thats the picture they say proves meredith arrived home, then wow. Surely there is a higher resolution picture to see facial features. If thats the best picture, then you seriously have to put her other friends back on the suspect list and atleast get DNA samples to disprove they where not in the house. And was the time stamp on that picture fast like the next day. In which case meredith arrives home at 20:31. What time did her friend say they split up. Was it before or after 20:41.
 
LondonJohn said:
Spotted something within 5 minutes of browsing through the (very difficult to read) Massei report translation:

On page 365 of the translation, Massei's version of the crime has Knox and Sollecito arriving at the girls' house at "slightly after 23.00pm" on the 1st November.

But isn't this in direct conflict with the people who were broken down opposite the house between 22.30 and 23.15 (or even 23.30), and who stated that they saw nobody enter or leave the house during the whole time they were there? Is Massei either overlooking their testimony or concluding that they are mistaken?
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"Do not try to bend the spoon - that's impossible. Instead, try to realize the truth: there is no spoon."
 
Alt+F4 said:
Both Kevin and John think that a 50 minute time window is more than enough for Rudy alone to have committed the murder and done everything else.

As for what goes on at PMF, try to keep up Malkmus, I've already stated that I don't read that site and the reason why.
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Perhaps you could elaborate on how you don't think that's enough time. Either way, that hardly seems like painting Rudy as some sort of "model of efficiency".

And I know you don't visit PMF, but it's the only site I know of that glorifies Rudy in such a way.
 
Chris C said:
Well according to this article meredith walked past that camera at 20:41. Not 2105. Thats an extra 19 minutes. Which means the attacker had over an hour. Of course if thats the picture they say proves meredith arrived home, then wow. Surely there is a higher resolution picture to see facial features. If thats the best picture, then you seriously have to put her other friends back on the suspect list and atleast get DNA samples to disprove they where not in the house. And was the time stamp on that picture fast like the next day. In which case meredith arrives home at 20:31. What time did her friend say they split up. Was it before or after 20:41.
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The time stamp on the camera was at least 10 minutes behind the actual time. This has been established by the output from the next day. The camera shows the Carabinieri arriving in a clip that is time-stamped at 1:22 pm. In fact, however, the Carabinieri could not find the place and they did not call for directions until 1:29 pm, and the call lasted more than 5 minutes.
 
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