Even if Teleportation becomes technically possible, it will probably not be used....

[Dorian Gray]

The ages-old debate about teleportation - if Me₀ is teleported, is the person at the other end Me₀, or Me₁? - is fun to discuss. However, I don't think it's the most difficult ethical dilemma teleportation has to offer. It's really hard, sure, but there's a harder one.

Consider this method as cutting you here, and pasting you there - wherever "there" is. What if, instead of cutting you here, the machine copied you here and pasted you there? First of all, legal, ethical and moral challenges abound, ranging from which one was "you", who has legal rights to the name and all that goes with it, etc. These would arise even if the two Yous were very cooperative. But on a grander scale, what if this happened on a widescale basis? And what if the copy was held and used as an organ farm? What if it was done without "Your" knowledge, and the other 'you' committed a crime?

So it probably won't be done with humans, at least not on a regular basis.

 

[noreligion]

The ages-old debate about teleportation - if Me₀ is teleported, is the person at the other end Me₀, or Me₁? - is fun to discuss. However, I don't think it's the most difficult ethical dilemma teleportation has to offer. It's really hard, sure, but there's a harder one.

Consider this method as cutting you here, and pasting you there - wherever "there" is. What if, instead of cutting you here, the machine copied you here and pasted you there? First of all, legal, ethical and moral challenges abound, ranging from which one was "you", who has legal rights to the name and all that goes with it, etc. These would arise even if the two Yous were very cooperative. But on a grander scale, what if this happened on a widescale basis? And what if the copy was held and used as an organ farm? What if it was done without "Your" knowledge, and the other 'you' committed a crime?

So it probably won't be done with humans, at least not on a regular basis.

Seems like a round about way to talk about cloning.

 

[paximperium]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180992
There is weeks worth of discussion about this already. Jump in there if you must.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

You're assuming that teleportation works on the merit of cut and paste like in "the fly".

While that's possible (anything is possible when talking sci-fi), it's not the only approach.

 

[leon_heller]

There is also this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118451

I raised the issue of teleportation, the discussion went on for weeks.

 

[Wolfman]

There've been several sci-fi stories written on this theme. I guess it depends on the kind of teleportation you're talking about. Science fiction tends to have two different forms of teleportation.

The first is what you're talking about...essentially, "copying" your current form, then "pasting" it somewhere else, presumably drawing on local materials to re-assemble the body. In this form of teleportation, the matter isn't transported, only the data is...and the data is used to re-assemble the person in a new location. I read a novel about this once (don't remember the name now) where people literally were duplicated...and in order to prevent the kind of problem you cite, after being 'copied', the originator was promptly killed. So every time you teleported, you were being murdered while also being copied elsewhere.

The second kind of teleportation involves an actual teleportation of the matter of your body (either disassembled and then reassembled, or else shifted whole through some kind of wormhole or rip in space/time). In this case, you're not being "cut-and-pasted" as such; you are transmitted as a whole package. I can easily envision a variety of scenarios (none based on actual science, mind you, but on a rather over-active imagination) where duplication is impossible, because there is no 'record' to copy from.

 

[paximperium]

Ultimately the discussion will break down to this simple question:
What makes YOU, YOU?

Is it just interacting molecules? ie. materialism/physicality/naturalism etc.
Or something more? ie. Dualism etc.

 

[theprestige]

The OP's Gordian Knot of identity has already been cut:

Twins.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Cut and paste...only if there is an Undo feature.

 

[Brian-M]

There's an amusing animated video on this subject. I saw it on another thread with this same theme ages ago (I forget which one).

I'd like to see it again. Anyone have a link?

 

[Wowbagger]

I, for one, wouldn't mind having a few clones around. It might make the world a nicer and happier place! I'm sure we clones would get along well and work out some sort of arrangement. I don't see any 'dilemma' here that identical twins wouldn't have.


(Sent from my Droid Incredible, using Tapatalk. Therefore, more typos may exist in this post than usual.)

 

[Brian-M]

I don't see any 'dilemma' here that identical twins wouldn't have.

I do. Separate identities for one. Twins are given different names, social-security numbers, birth certificates, etc. Teleporter-clones don't have this automatic distinction, so you'd need a way to legally distinguish between them. Teleporter-cloning would have to be regulated, with strict records kept and new identity papers issued to the resulting clones.

And you'd need a practical way to distinguish between them. How can you be sure which one is the original if they both claim that they are the original and their fingerprints match?

Should a teleporter-clone have the right to claim a college diploma/degree earned by it's progenitor before the cloning occurred? After all, it has all the same memories and abilities, even if it technically never attended college.

And what about inheritance laws? Is the teleporter-clone it's progenitor's sibling, eligible to inherit part of it's progenitor's parent's estate when they die? Or is it be considered it's progenitor's offspring?

And what about age? A teleporter-clone could be only a few days old, but have the physical form an memories of a 40 year-old. Would it be right to deny the clone the right to consume alcohol, hold a driver's license and vote because technically it's under-age?

There are myriad legal and practical complications in this hypothetical scenario.

 

[Brian-M]

There's an amusing animated video on this subject. I saw it on another thread with this same theme ages ago (I forget which one).

I'd like to see it again. Anyone have a link?

Nevermind, I found it.
Dorian Gray... Is this the kind of scenario you're thinking of?

 

[Halfcentaur]

Yes, there is a current discussion going on about this as other have alluded to.

As long as there is only one of you and never a moment where the copy exists at the same time as the double, and you get over the existential horror of it, it's not much different from reality as you know it.

At any given moment, your particles, at an atomic scale, are bumping into other particles and exchanging their properties. In that sense, at any given moment, you are comprised of completely different elemental components, outside of the properties they are emitting. You are never the same physical being as the one in your memories.

Which gets me to thinking about visiting places you've been in the past to celebrate events.

As the earth is forever moving through space, as is the solar system, as is the galaxy, etc, you are really just visiting the point on the Earth where you were, and not the actual point in reality where it happened. Wouldn't be nice to visit the point in space where you were born? Or met your wife?

Mental masturbation, but good fun.

 

[Wowbagger]

I do. Separate identities for one. Twins are given different names, social-security numbers, birth certificates, etc. Teleporter-clones don't have this automatic distinction, so you'd need a way to legally distinguish between them. Teleporter-cloning would have to be regulated, with strict records kept and new identity papers issued to the resulting clones.

Well, I suppose most of the danger in these issues might depend on the person being cloned. Like I said: If it was me, we would probably work out a peaceful agreement.

The following is only my opinion on how to resolve the issues you bring up:

And you'd need a practical way to distinguish between them. How can you be sure which one is the original if they both claim that they are the original and their fingerprints match?

Why would you need to know who was the "original"? What difference would it actually make, if they are both (theoretically) exact dupes of each other?

If needed, they could have a "marker" of some sort, embedded into them, to distingush between the two, from that point forward. But, which one was the "original" makes no difference.

Should a teleporter-clone have the right to claim a college diploma/degree earned by it's progenitor before the cloning occurred? After all, it has all the same memories and abilities, even if it technically never attended college.

Who cares if the actual atoms went to college or not? I'll bet very few of the atoms making up your body, right now, are the exact same ones you went to college with. (assuming you went to college.)

If they have the same memories and abilities, why NOT allow them both to claim they earned the diploma?

And what about inheritance laws? Is the teleporter-clone it's progenitor's sibling, eligible to inherit part of it's progenitor's parent's estate when they die? Or is it be considered it's progenitor's offspring?

This could be trickier, because it would be unethical to clone the inheritance, I suppose.

But, if it were me, we'd just spit what we're entitled to 50/50. (And, in cases where there can't be an exact split (say, we inherit a pet dog or something), we'll work something out, I am sure.)

This is the one issue you brought up that might not have such a clean answer for everyone else, though.

And what about age? A teleporter-clone could be only a few days old, but have the physical form an memories of a 40 year-old. Would it be right to deny the clone the right to consume alcohol, hold a driver's license and vote because technically it's under-age?

Again, who cares about the technicalities of the actual age of the atoms?! If the clone was of someone of legal age, and assumed to take on the responsabilities of someone that age, why NOT allow them the privilages of that age?

I don't think there would be any drastic issues adapting the laws to reflect "virtual temporal experience", instead of "actual age" or "actual college attendance", etc; in most cases.

 

[theprestige]

I do. Separate identities for one. Twins are given different names, social-security numbers, birth certificates, etc. Teleporter-clones don't have this automatic distinction, so you'd need a way to legally distinguish between them.

Twins don't have this "automatic" distinction either.

In fact, what you call an "automatic" distinction, is in fact a bunch of artificial distinctions applied to otherwise practically indistinguishable persons.

We'd need a way to legally distinguish between clones for the exact same reason we need a way to legally distinguish between twins. And we'd do it the exact same "automatic" way: Give the clone a different name, a different social security number, a different birth certificate, etc.

I see no reason why teleporter-clones couldn't be addressed exactly the way twins are: One moment there's one person, the next there's two. What difference should it make, from a practical standpoint, if the second person emerges from the womb minutes after yourself, or emerges from a transporter thirty years later?

 

[This is The End]

This has been brought up before (and isn't exactly on topic.... and doesn't have an answer because it is about fiction...). Why, on Star Trek, does anyone walk anywhere at all, why take the turbolift when you could just transport? I assume it is complicated and/or consumes a lot of energy.

Also (again, brought up before) I assume the replicator on Star Trek is the exact same tech as a transporter. They just scan lots of things (food) and store the data for later duplication.

Back on topic (the topic is Star Trek correct?), there was a TNG episode dealing with Dorian's OP. AFAIR Riker was accidentally duplicated during a transport.

There is also this thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118451

I raised the issue of teleportation, the discussion went on for weeks.

Yes, if that is the thread I remember, this exact topic has been discussed (at length) there.

 

[Wolfman]

Sorry, but I just don't get the "twins" comparison. Yeah, twins are genetically identical...but are entirely different people. Different memories, different personalities, different experiences, etc. Two adult twins, with decades of life behind them, are very distinct from each other, despite their shared genetic identity.

Someone who's been cloned (not teleported) will similarly be different from the original...unless we assume implanted memories, the clone will grow up with different experiences, different memories, etc. They will still, in short, be a different person.

But a teleportation 'copy'...the two would be identical in every way possible. Not just a shared genetic heritage, but exactly the same memories, personality, etc. Of course, they'd start to diverge after being copied...but that's not what's being discussed.

Think of it this way...I read a short story many years ago that used this idea. Some bank robbers needed the password to a particular vault. When the owner was teleporting, they stole a copy of his data stream, and created a copy of him, then tortured him until he told them the password...and then killed him. The original was, of course, entirely unaware of this, and they broke in successfully, the 'perfect' crime. This would not work with either a clone, nor a twin.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Read any of Richard Morgan's "Kovacs" stories.
Two people with one bank account is the least of the problems.

 

[Brian-M]

Why would you need to know who was the "original"? What difference would it actually make, if they are both (theoretically) exact dupes of each other?

No real difference. If you were duplicated, it wouldn't make any difference which Wowbagger was labeled "original" and "duplicate" (except possibly to the two of you). But the distinction has to be made for practical purposes.

For example, if one Wowbagger takes out a loan and but doesn't make any repayments, how does the debt collector know which Wowbagger to take to court, especially if you are both sharing an apartment? (It would be unfair to sue the other Wowbagger for repayments on a loan he didn't take out.)

It wouldn't have to be a label of "original" and "duplicate", just some means of distinguishing between different versions of the same person, like a serial number. You could be Wowbagger A, and the other could be Wowbagger 1.

Who cares if the actual atoms went to college or not? I'll bet very few of the atoms making up your body, right now, are the exact same ones you went to college with. (assuming you went to college.)

If they have the same memories and abilities, why NOT allow them both to claim they earned the diploma?

Again, who cares about the technicalities of the actual age of the atoms?! If the clone was of someone of legal age, and assumed to take on the responsabilities of someone that age, why NOT allow them the privilages of that age?

I agree with all this, but the distinction between "original" and "duplicate" would make these sticky questions until the laws/regulations are altered to take the existence of duplicate persons into account. Until then, bureaucracy would render the duplicate effectively a non-person.

Twins don't have this "automatic" distinction either.

In fact, what you call an "automatic" distinction, is in fact a bunch of artificial distinctions applied to otherwise practically indistinguishable persons.

Twins are given separate names, birth certificates and social security numbers. This may be an "artificial" distinction, but it's also "automatic" in the sense that the procedures and mechanisms to do all this are already in place, so no special effort has to be made.

There are no established procedures for providing a teleporter clone with a separate identity and paperwork, so the clone would be trapped in a bureaucratic limbo until special measures are taken to provide the necessary documents.