Even if Teleportation becomes technically possible, it will probably not be used....

[This is The End]

I really don't understand how anyone can have any question as to which is the original and which is the duplicate.

(Unless, of course, the procedure is carried out in secrecy.... or it inherently requires secrecy or a closed environment.)

 

[Brian-M]

I really don't understand how anyone can have any question as to which is the original and which is the duplicate.

(Unless, of course, the procedure is carried out in secrecy.... or it inherently requires secrecy or a closed environment.)

Easy if the duplicate lies about being the duplicate.

You duplicate someone and a few days later they both walk into your office, each claiming to be the original. Unless you've marked one of them as a duplicate (like the tattoo behind the ear in Multiplicity), how do you know which one is the original and which one is the duplicate?

But I suppose if we're hypothesizing teleporter-duplication, we may as well throw in effective lie-detection while we're at it.

 

[Wowbagger]

(It would be unfair to sue the other Wowbagger for repayments on a loan he didn't take out.)

For all intents and purposes the "other" Wowbagger DID take out the loan. Both clones have the same memories and responsabilities attached to that loan as each other. Assuming the loan was taken before the cloning.

It wouldn't have to be a label of "original" and "duplicate", just some means of distinguishing between different versions of the same person, like a serial number. You could be Wowbagger A, and the other could be Wowbagger 1.

Yes, establishing a label for each Wowbagger is good, for all purposes after the dupes exist. If there are now two Wowbagger clones, and one then takes out a loan, the other is not responsible for it.

I agree with all this, but the distinction between "original" and "duplicate" would make these sticky questions until the laws/regulations are altered to take the existence of duplicate persons into account. Until then, bureaucracy would render the duplicate effectively a non-person.

So, the laws will have to be changed and adjusted. Big deal.

There might be a big bruhaha over this, for a little while, but it would be accepted as just part of life, once the next generation comes along.

 

[AvalonXQ]

 

[Brian-M]

For all intents and purposes the "other" Wowbagger DID take out the loan. Both clones have the same memories and responsabilities attached to that loan as each other. Assuming the loan was taken before the cloning.

I meant a loan taken out after the cloning. But this does bring up a point similar to the one about inheritance. Which duplicate has to pay off the loan? Do they each have to pay off half the debt?

And what about income? Assuming the their employer doesn't want an extra employee, and one of the duplicates has to find another job which pays significantly less, does he still have to pay off the same portion of the debt?

The sensible action, in my opinion, would be to label one as being the original (for the sake of convenience), who is responsible for all previously incurred debts, retains ownership of all possessions, name and job, while the other is given a new name and identity, and regarded as being a new person. The "original" is free to share with the "duplicate", or not.

At least, this would clear things up for the sake of property law. Criminal law would have to adopt a different philosophy to the situation.

So, the laws will have to be changed and adjusted. Big deal.

There might be a big bruhaha over this, for a little while, but it would be accepted as just part of life, once the next generation comes along.

Once all laws, regulations and conventions in society have adjusted to accept teleporter-clones, then sure, no problem. The main problems lie in the transition period. At the rate which bureaucracy changes, this could take some time. There may even be several generations where teleporter-duplicates are regarded by mainstream society as being less than fully human, second-class citizens who don't deserve the same rights as "natural" people. Human bigotry knows no bounds.

And I'm feeling somewhat disconcerted that I'm spending so much time pondering such an unrealistic hypothetical. I need to get a life. I'll leave it to my transporter-duplicate to discuss any further questions on this subject for now on.

 

[noreligion]

Sorry, but I just don't get the "twins" comparison. Yeah, twins are genetically identical...but are entirely different people. Different memories, different personalities, different experiences, etc. Two adult twins, with decades of life behind them, are very distinct from each other, despite their shared genetic identity.

Someone who's been cloned (not teleported) will similarly be different from the original...unless we assume implanted memories, the clone will grow up with different experiences, different memories, etc. They will still, in short, be a different person.

But a teleportation 'copy'...the two would be identical in every way possible. Not just a shared genetic heritage, but exactly the same memories, personality, etc. Of course, they'd start to diverge after being copied...but that's not what's being discussed.

Think of it this way...I read a short story many years ago that used this idea. Some bank robbers needed the password to a particular vault. When the owner was teleporting, they stole a copy of his data stream, and created a copy of him, then tortured him until he told them the password...and then killed him. The original was, of course, entirely unaware of this, and they broke in successfully, the 'perfect' crime. This would not work with either a clone, nor a twin.

Not only but neither do twins share the same fingerprints or pattern of blood vessels.

 

[Wowbagger]

AvalonXQ, I love that line:
"Engineers are now officially banned from all future philosophy conferences."


Anyway, if anyone in this thread is concerned that I seem to have too much experience with these cloining issues, I can assure you that I am NOT a clone, myself. If anyone doubts me, we can discuss it here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182386

 

[Wowbagger]

I meant a loan taken out after the cloning.

That would be different. It would be unfair to go after the one who didn't take out the loan. So, that is why a "marker" of some sort would need to be established on them, to distinguish between them, shortly after the clone is created.

Of course, if the clones are not quite exact duplicates (transcription errors, I imagine, would be a real issue, if transporters were real), then markers would probably pre-exist.

You don't have to mark one as "original" and the other as "duplicate", if you can't tell which is which. Marking them as "A" and "B" is good enough. Unless, of course, there are more than 26 of them.

 

[C_Felix]

If we can ever teleport...
(I'm forgetting about the "is it really me?" type of stuff)
...I could live in Florida and teleport to work in Maine?

I could teleport into the a bathroom stall at the Superbowl and sneak in?
I could teleport into a Best Buy, grab a lap-top, and then teleport back out, all in about 3 seconds?

 

[Dorian Gray]

Twins.

Ha! Nice try, but twins are born with separate identities. The OP suggests that at the split, both people would insist they were the original person, and both would be right in many ways..

 

[Brian-M]

If we can ever teleport...
(I'm forgetting about the "is it really me?" type of stuff)
...I could live in Florida and teleport to work in Maine?

I don't see why not.

I could teleport into the a bathroom stall at the Superbowl and sneak in?
I could teleport into a Best Buy, grab a lap-top, and then teleport back out, all in about 3 seconds?

People might get a bit suspicious when you show up the day before to install a teleporter receiver/transmitter in a Superbowl bathroom or the computer section of a Best Buy.

 

[theprestige]

Ha! Nice try, but twins are born with separate identities. The OP suggests that at the split, both people would insist they were the original person, and both would be right in many ways..

Why on Earth would both insist they were the original?

More accurately, why would either insist they were the other, any more than birth-twins do?

One of them steps into a teleporter on Earth, and steps out again a moment later, deeply, existentially aware that he is not on Mars.

The other steps out a moment later, deeply, existentially aware that he is on Mars. Everything else follows from that, and is simply a matter of nomenclature and bookkeeping.

Aside from the obvious absurdity of the one on Mars claiming he is the one on Earth, why would he want to, any more than any twin would want to claim the identity of their sibling?

Sure, twins may sometimes claim to be each other, as a prank, or as a crime, but these shenanigans are merely parlor tricks; they don't even begin to touch on the fundamental self-identity of either twin.

I mean, sure you could brainwash one or both of them, so that they no longer remembered which one of them was on Mars and which one of them was on Earth. And yes, that would raise some interesting questions about self-identity.

In fact, that's exactly what happened in the blockbuster movie Total Recall, minus the cloning bit. You know how many people spend any time at all worrying about who was the real Hauser? None. They all stop caring by the time they get from the movie theater back to their car. Because, from a practical standpoint, identity really isn't all that hard to sort out.

 

[Brian-M]

Why on Earth would both insist they were the original?

They might have their reasons.

Girlfriend: Okay, so which one of you am I dating again?

Person A: I'm the original, let's go back to my apartment.

Person 1: The hell you are! I'm the original, and that's my apartment. Go get your own place and your own girlfriend.

Person A: Bulldust! I'm the original. Leave my girl and my apartment alone. And you better not touch my bank account.

Person 1: Stop lying! That's my girlfriend, my apartment and my money! You're only a few hours old, you don't have anything!

And so on.

ETA:

More accurately, why would either insist they were the other, any more than birth-twins do?

Because both of them would have the same subjective memories of earning money, buying their home, developing relationships, owning the same stuff. From both perspectives, it's their stuff. They both have the same emotional attachments to their possessions and relationships. They may not want to give it up.

Twins, on the other hand, grow up as separate people, and consequently have different subjective memories.

 

[theprestige]

They might have their reasons.

Girlfriend: Okay, so which one of you am I dating again?

Person A: I'm the original, let's go back to my apartment.

Person 1: The hell you are! I'm the original, and that's my apartment. Go get your own place and your own girlfriend.

Person A: Bulldust! I'm the original. Leave my girl and my apartment alone. And you better not touch my bank account.

Person 1: Stop lying! That's my girlfriend, my apartment and my money! You're only a few hours old, you don't have anything!

And so on.

Well, yes, but lying about your identity kind of rebuts the entire idea that you don't know your identity, doesn't it?

ETA:


Because both of them would have the same subjective memories of earning money, buying their home, developing relationships, owning the same stuff. From both perspectives, it's their stuff. They both have the same emotional attachments to their possessions and relationships. They may not want to give it up.

Twins, on the other hand, grow up as separate people, and consequently have different subjective memories.

Well, but in this case surely they both have the memory of deciding to create a copy on Mars by means of the previously-defined Marsporter.

The one on Mars may have all sorts of legal and social problems related to being yet another mouth to feed, but presumably all that is worked out as part of the process of gaining access to and using the Marsporter in the first place.

The one problem he doesn't have, however, is being under any illusion that he is the original, which has remained behind on Earth.

Emotional attachment to someone else's identity is another problem entirely; perhaps only emotionally-stable people should be allowed to use the Marsporter? And we know it's someone else's identity, because the person with that identity is still on Earth. The copy on Mars obviously isn't. He knows exactly which of the two he is, from the moment he becomes conscious upon completing his journey to Mars.

Each of the two knows exactly who they are. John-on-Earth knows he's John-on-Earth. John-on-Mars knows he's John-on-Mars.

Who knows? Maybe they're happy to share the assets of John (the original, pre-copy). Maybe they get off on both using the public persona of John.

Maybe you're not even allowed to use the Marsporter at all, unless you have the resources to set up a trust fund for John-on-Mars, so that he has some starting capital to make his own way in the world. Maybe your accounts are legally divided between yourself and your copy. Maybe using the Marsporter requires a process not unlike divorce.

But one thing it can't do is create a crisis of identity. John-on-Mars knows he's John-on-Mars. Presumably he thought this was a good idea before he stepped into the Marsporter.

 

[Marduk]

Consider this method as cutting you here, and pasting you there - wherever "there" is. What if, instead of cutting you here, the machine copied you here and pasted you there? First of all, legal, ethical and moral challenges abound, ranging from which one was "you", who has legal rights to the name and all that goes with it, etc. These would arise even if the two Yous were very cooperative. But on a grander scale, what if this happened on a widescale basis? And what if the copy was held and used as an organ farm? What if it was done without "Your" knowledge, and the other 'you' committed a crime?

This dilemma cropped up on an episode of ST TNG, where Commander William Ryker discovered that due to a transporter malfunction during an emergency beamout years before a copy of him was made and left behind on a planet undiscovered for almost a decade.
However the transporter copied them perfectly so that when they met face to face it was discovered that they were both still twats.
It could have been worse though, it could have been Wesley Crusher who was copied.....

 

[Brian-M]

But one thing it can't do is create a crisis of identity. John-on-Mars knows he's John-on-Mars. Presumably he thought this was a good idea before he stepped into the Marsporter.

Oh, you mean a personal crisis of identity.

What if the teleporter doesn't normally make a copy? What if it disassembles a person, transmits the information to Mars, and reassembles him with new atoms, so there's normally only one existent version of a person at a time?

But the connection with Mars is cut-off before the "successful transmission" signal returns, so the fail-safe system kicks in and reassembles him on Earth from new atoms as well.

Neither copy is aware of the existence of the other. By the time the transmitter is fixed, the one on earth decides that his business on Mars can wait, and teleports to his home on Ganymede (Jupiter), only to meet himself (the Mars-version, having finished his business on Mars) on the way to his house.

Who owns his house? Who is married to his wife? Which one holds his job?

 

[Dorian Gray]

Why on Earth would both insist they were the original?

More accurately, why would either insist they were the other, any more than birth-twins do?

One of them steps into a teleporter on Earth, and steps out again a moment later, deeply, existentially aware that he is not on Mars.

The other steps out a moment later, deeply, existentially aware that he is on Mars. Everything else follows from that, and is simply a matter of nomenclature and bookkeeping.

Aside from the obvious absurdity of the one on Mars claiming he is the one on Earth, why would he want to, any more than any twin would want to claim the identity of their sibling?

Sure, twins may sometimes claim to be each other, as a prank, or as a crime, but these shenanigans are merely parlor tricks; they don't even begin to touch on the fundamental self-identity of either twin.

I mean, sure you could brainwash one or both of them, so that they no longer remembered which one of them was on Mars and which one of them was on Earth. And yes, that would raise some interesting questions about self-identity.

In fact, that's exactly what happened in the blockbuster movie Total Recall, minus the cloning bit. You know how many people spend any time at all worrying about who was the real Hauser? None. They all stop caring by the time they get from the movie theater back to their car. Because, from a practical standpoint, identity really isn't all that hard to sort out.

Let's call the person 'Dorian Gray'. Dorian steps into the Earth teleporter and steps out on Mars, and steps out on Earth. Since both of them believe themselves to be THE Dorian Gray, one of them proceeds as planned on Mars, and the other assumes there has been some kind of error or glitch and (let's say) goes back home. Which one is Dorian Gray? They would both insist they were the original because they would not know of each other's existence.

Another scenario: Dorian steps into the Earth teleporter, and steps out on Mars - twice. Somehow there are now two Dorians on the Mars teleporter. Both insist they are the original, because each of them believes himself to be the original, with good reason.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. This situation Is. Not. Twins. Or. Clones.

If someone came up to you right now who looked exactly like you, could answer any question about your past that you posed to him, and could tell you what you were thinking, and then insisted you were a copy, you'd object.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Ultimately, I think this turns into a prisoner's dilemma rather than a philosophical debate. It depends on your nature. If you were reasonable and rational, you'd work out a deal where you traded off every 6 months, etc. If you were extremely reasonable, you'd work out this deal without telling your wife. 5 months in life, 1 month transitional interlace, 5 months living it up, 1 month transitional interlace (meaning you meet and compare notes so you can swap.)

 

[Brian-M]

Ultimately, I think this turns into a prisoner's dilemma rather than a philosophical debate. It depends on your nature. If you were reasonable and rational, you'd work out a deal where you traded off every 6 months, etc. If you were extremely reasonable, you'd work out this deal without telling your wife. 5 months in life, 1 month transitional interlace, 5 months living it up, 1 month transitional interlace (meaning you meet and compare notes so you can swap.)

It almost sounds like you've been watching Multiplicity.

(Of course, in the movie it doesn't work out that way. The duplicate makes a duplicate of himself, who also duplicates himself, at which point it gets hard to keep it a secret from the wife.)

 

[Cuddles]

So it probably won't be done with humans, at least not on a regular basis.

This in no way follows from the rest of your post. Sure, if teleportation were possible there might be various ethical and legal issues. When has that ever stopped us from doing something?