Banned Book:The Hoax of the Twentieth Century
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Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
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MortFurd,
may I set some minor things straight? I am with you most of the way, but to be fair...
You can't "borrow" books from The German national library as in "take them home for a fourtnight". You can have the delivered to the reading room, and you ought to cite valid scientific or vocational reasons.
That is the point of this discussion? Should hate speech alone be sufficient to jail someone? Personal insult and libel are already punishable delicts. The idea behind the law against hate speech and holocaust denial is that by summarily insulting an entire segment of population, or specifically by denying the enormous suffering of an entire population, every single individual of these segments can be construed as being personally insulted.
This would require that that person is explicitly and singularly being insulted in the book and does not square with what I wrote in the previous paragraph. The stakes for proving this are typically very high. I don't think it is very likely any extremist book is on the index because of a personal penal complaint.
The Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien maintains an index of works than must not be made available to youths under 18 years of age. One of the reasons why a work may be put on the index is of course when they break penal law. In this case, the book must not only not be be made available to any youth, it must also not be published or distributed in any other way to the general public. It is however legal to own such works. Exceptions also apply to scientific research. That is why "The Hoax" is available at the National Library.
http://www.bpjm.com/bpjmdotcom/ is a private website that mirrors the index list. Unfortunately, it's a flash-player-only site, I can't deep-link. You find "The Hoax" if you click
- Ja, ich möchte die Inhalte von bpjm.com sehen
- Indiziert
- Printmedien
Then scroll down to letter J and find "Jahrhundertbetrug, Der; Butz, Arthur R."
It's labelled with [B] which means it is indexed because it breaks penal law.
may I set some minor things straight? I am with you most of the way, but to be fair...
You can't "borrow" books from The German national library as in "take them home for a fourtnight". You can have the delivered to the reading room, and you ought to cite valid scientific or vocational reasons.
That is the point of this discussion? Should hate speech alone be sufficient to jail someone? Personal insult and libel are already punishable delicts. The idea behind the law against hate speech and holocaust denial is that by summarily insulting an entire segment of population, or specifically by denying the enormous suffering of an entire population, every single individual of these segments can be construed as being personally insulted.
This would require that that person is explicitly and singularly being insulted in the book and does not square with what I wrote in the previous paragraph. The stakes for proving this are typically very high. I don't think it is very likely any extremist book is on the index because of a personal penal complaint.
The Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien maintains an index of works than must not be made available to youths under 18 years of age. One of the reasons why a work may be put on the index is of course when they break penal law. In this case, the book must not only not be be made available to any youth, it must also not be published or distributed in any other way to the general public. It is however legal to own such works. Exceptions also apply to scientific research. That is why "The Hoax" is available at the National Library.
http://www.bpjm.com/bpjmdotcom/ is a private website that mirrors the index list. Unfortunately, it's a flash-player-only site, I can't deep-link. You find "The Hoax" if you click
- Ja, ich möchte die Inhalte von bpjm.com sehen
- Indiziert
- Printmedien
Then scroll down to letter J and find "Jahrhundertbetrug, Der; Butz, Arthur R."
It's labelled with [B] which means it is indexed because it breaks penal law.
Thanks, we knew he was lying, but couldn't cite the chapter and verse to prove it.
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Yeah, he posted.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I think you need to straighten out your scorecard. Saggy (a known denier) is accusing Mortfurd of lying. Oystein is honing the finer points, but agreeing with Mortfurd for the most part.
@Saggy - " We"? Do you have a committee working on this? Or do you and Scrappy and Skippy and Skooby speak in the royal second person plural?
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
It was a play on the old politician joke: How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving.
Sorry if it hit the wrong target, btw.
You're forgetting something very important. It's possible that someone would deny in good fate that some historical event happened.
But the holocaust deniers know very well the holocaust did happen, and deny it simply to get Nazism acceptable again so as to make it easier to have another holocaust. That is why they are similar to the original Nazis: both have the same goal, to wit, genociding the Jews.
This is not, typically, the case with those who deny other specific historical events.
Some people think, e.g., the Roman empire never existed and that it's all a medieval invention. But as absurd as that is, they (a) apparently honestly believe it, and (b) have no plan to use this theory, if it ever gains any legitimacy, as proof all modern-day Italians have perpetuated a huge hoax on the world and therefore must be all killed.
P.S.
I am therefore excepting from the general rule the few holocaust deniers who really do honestly believe it never happened and don't seem to have anything against Jews -- e.g., David Icke, who seems to think the holocaust never happened because all of modern history is a gigantic reptilian-controlled hoax.
But those are only a tiny minority of the holocaust deniers. The typical holocaust denier isn't a skeptic, however unjustified in his skepticism, he's simply a liar.
JerryGarcia
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FWIW, I found several libraries in Germany holding the book using Worldcat.org
They include Bremen, Kiel, Frankfurt, Augsburg, Munchen, and Neubiberg.
They include Bremen, Kiel, Frankfurt, Augsburg, Munchen, and Neubiberg.
Oystein
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Actually, I don't think he was lying. He was mostly right, partly out on a limb, and partly misleading. I supposed he googled and gave us what he found. I understand that MortFurd is not a German, and so may be excused for not getting the finer details of German law or the procedures of an unusual library.
The thing about "borrowing" the book from the National Library: Yes, you can borrow it, but can't take it off of the premises. And you can't borrow it (or, indeed, any book there) merely for pleasure. I actually DID request the book to be delivered to the reading room, and expect it will be there tomorrow for me to collect; I am just not going to Frankfurt
About the penal paragraph against hate speech, I corrected nothing, just voiced my own legal opinion.
My remarks on paragraph 194 can't be construed as claiming MortFurd to be wrong - again I am only voicing my opinion that in practice that paragraph would not be expected to play much of a role in this topic of holocaust denial. I should point out here that I am myself have not studied law, so my opinion might not be better than his.
MortFurd did not claim that the book is not on the index, he merely claims that he could not find proof it is and it therefore seems to be off the index. Well, he was wrong on that, but was clearly not lying.
(His obesrvation "Mr. Butz didn't seem to have made the grade - though his hero Hitler did" is wrong on both counts, by the way: Butz did make it on the index, but Hitler did not! "Mein Kampf" is not indexed. It is simply not available in print because the copyright has been claimed by the State of Bavaria, which has decided not to publish the book. This claim is probably incorrect, but has not been challenged by Hitler's legal heirs. However, if you have an old copy, nothing stops you from selling it in an open market, even to youths. After the year 2015, the copyright will be extinguished and anyone will be allowed to legally republish "Mein Kampf".)
He was either lying, or he is a fool. I don't know a damn thing about it, but I do know, all dancing around the index aside, that you can't buy the book in Germany, say, order it from Amazon, or buy it at the German equivalent of Barnes and Noble.
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Oystein
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Cool.
These are all university libraries. (Is that what worldcat is all abut?)
Some have remarks like "only available in reading room" or "only with permission", others seem to make the book available without restriction.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
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Now you are the liar.
No one claimed you can buy the book. For goodness sake, did you not read what I wrote??? MortFurd clearyl - clearly!!!! - stated that he could not find anything that says the book is forbidden. Is that a lie? Just the other day I said I could not find my bottle opener - was that a lie? Grrrrrrrrrrr
He said that it therefore seems the book is not forbidden. And that is not a lie! If you can't find anyone who says or writes that trespassing is forbidden on this stretch of beach, then indeed it seems not to be forbidden. That would be an honest mistake if in fact it turns out there is a sign posted, but too well hidden for you. Easy to gras for kids - why can't delusional people like you not grasp simple English?
By the way: How do you know you can't buy the book, without consulting the index? Have you tried?
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He was lying by omission, as are you. You can't buy the book in Germany, end of story. If you had an honest bone in your body, you'd admit it. I won't hold my breath.
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JerryGarcia
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Worldcat searches all libraries, public and academic.
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
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Holy ******
I am sitting here, mouth wide open, not believing how someone can be so utterly malevolently spitting filthy poison at my face!
Off to ignore you go!
Holy ******
I am sitting here, mouth wide open, not believing how someone can be so utterly malevolently spitting filthy poison at my face!
Off to ignore you go!
A typical Zionist reaction to the truth, right in your face.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
In the Netherlands, the government pulled the same trick. The popular Dutch translation (in rather archaically Dutch called "Mijn kamp") was translated and published by a publisher that specialized in Nazi stuff. After the war, it came in financial troubles and one of the owners died (of natural causes). When it filed for bankruptcy, the government seized the copyrights. None of the heirs had a shimmer of intention to contest that.
Which says nothing. As long as it's not in the index, it's not forbidden. That the big chains don't want to carry it, is not indicative. You can always go to a smaller bookstore and order it. It could take a while though to get it, as I see it's been published in Belgium at Verbeke's VHO.
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Holy ******
I am sitting here, mouth wide open, not believing how someone can be so utterly malevolently spitting filthy poison at my face!
Off to ignore you go!
You've been here since Dec. and you didn't have Saggy on ignore yet?
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You've been here since Dec. and you didn't have Saggy on ignore yet?
It's the socks. Sorry, that was Budly.
But how can you mock these neo-nasties when you have them on ignore?Arisia
Graduate Poster
Considering the economy, I'm betting the library copies would see more use than any that might be in the bookstores anyway.
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