Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[joobz]

I'm not preaching, I forming a logical conclusion that if the historical person, Jesus, that secular historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Seutonius wrote of did not teach his philosophy it is very possible given the the brutal sadistic behaviors of the Romans that Western Civilization as we know it would not be in existence and the world could be a much scarier place now.

How do you explain the Inquisition?
the American Genocides?
the Progroms?
The persistence of slavery and serfdom?
The general horrible brutality of European justice?


DOC, your argument is only logical if one completely ignores all of history.

 

[Akhenaten]

I'm not preaching, I forming a logical conclusion that if the historical person, Jesus, that secular historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Seutonius wrote of, did not teach his philosophy it is very possible given the the brutal sadistic behaviors of the Romans that Western Civilization as we know it would not be in existence and the world could be a much scarier place now.

This is proselytizing nonsense and has nothing to do with either logic or the presentation of evidence.

Stop derailiing the thread with this drivel.

 

[DOC]

How do you explain the Inquisition?
the American Genocides?
the Progroms?
The persistence of slavery and serfdom?
The general horrible brutality of European justice?


DOC, your argument is only logical if one completely ignores all of history.

I've talked about all of your specific subjects above before in other threads except Progoms and I"m not going to talk about them in this thread.

 

[DOC]

This is proselytizing nonsense and has nothing to do with either logic or the presentation of evidence.

Stop derailiing the thread with this drivel.

We have a difference of opinion. Talking of the teachings of the historical character Jesus is not derailing this thread and if you ever use the word derail or off topic again I'm going to block you.

 

[A Lurker]

Why would the Romans advertise a supposed miracle by an enemy?

Doc... you are, without doubt, one of the most deliberately historically ignorant people I've ever come across, online or anywhere else. What you've written displays a staggering lack of knowledge about the Roman Empire; because not only did they tend to claim everyone's miracles were valid, with the deliberate aim of eventual cultural osmosis ("You've got a storm god? We've got one too! They should get together sometime!") but are you ready for this? The most famous Roman site in all of the United Kingdom, the one which defines the Roman occupation and culture more than any other...

... was named after...

... dedicated to, and walls built around to protect...

the belief in a Celtic Goddess

Aquae Sulis, what we now call the city of Bath

Seriously, how can you be so determined to delude yourself that you'd make the above claim, and yet manage to ignore an entire city? Read the article; hundreds of years of curses, and yet they're all to the goddess Sulis. There is not, and never was a Roman deity called Sulis, Doc.

The Romans may have been military imperialists, but religious or cultural ones they absolutely were not... until the time of Christianity. That's one of your sins, not the Pagans. Nope, grow their wine, send them your corn, join them in slapping about everyone else, and the Roman's wouldn't truly care where you were from or what you believed beyond that... Indeed, there was probably at least 1 black Emperor of Rome, Septimus Severus, and definitely an African unit, the Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum, served on Hadrian's Wall and may have settled in the area. The Roman's weren't as narrow minded as you are, Doc!

 

[Akhenaten]

We have a difference of opinion. Talking of the teachings of the historical character Jesus is not derailing this thread and if you ever use the word derail or off topic again I'm going to block you.

Presenting the alleged teachings of a mythical character is exactly what is meant by proselytizing and is exactly what you are doing.

It is completely off-topic for this thread, the subject of which is "Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth."

Presenting anything which does not address the evidence, or lack thereof, is indeed derailing the thread.


To return to the topic, what is your response to this post?

DOC, when are you going to get what everyone has been beating their heads against a brick wall saying for over 350 pages? Evidence that people wrote stuff down (2000 years ago) that they believed in, isn't Evidence of TRUTH.

But it is historical evidence, ask any historian.

Okie Dokes. Let's ask Edward Gibbon. Have you heard of him, DOC? He is, unlike Norman Geisler, a real historian.

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah,) was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief. The doctrine of the incarnation, and the mystery of transubstantiation, were both adopted, and are both as repugnant to reason, as was the ancient pagan rite of viewing the entrails of animals to forecast the fate of empires!"

- Edward Gibbon (History of Christianity)​

 

[DOC]

For the record I have blocked Akhenaten. I asked him not to do something but he continues to do it. I believe this is the first person I've blocked in over 3 years on this system. I might unblock him in a month or so.

 

[tsig]

So, the evidence that you were claiming existed was destroyed once before the events it supported had occurred and twice afterwards.

Righteo then.





What you prefer to believe is totally irrelevent. It may have escaped your notice that 95% of this thread is all about explaining that evidence trumps personal belief, every time.

To answer your specific assertion above, you are employing the fallacy of creating a false dichotomy - neither of your proposed scenarios has to be true in order to explain 'things'.





Who wanted whom dead now? Got any evidence for this desire to do someone in? Or why they'd feel the need, given that the Romans had (or will have, depending on your chronology) already done the job for them.





Do you have any unincinerated evidence for this?



So can Star Destroyers and Jedi knights. The coherence of the story doesn't enable the actuality though, does it?





And you are?

His evidence is like the Phoenix.

 

[tsig]

Don't you hate when that happens?

No, I had overdue books.

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

How can you have empirical evidence of a the corpse that has never been found.

The same could be said for Julius Caesar, we have no bones, no ashes, no signature for him -- just some statues like we have of Zeus, and some coins that have an image like we have an image of an eagle holding some arrows and olive leaves on our money.

No, that is not the case. We have copies of books written by Caesar, we have the remains of buildings built upon his command with the concomitant inscriptions, we have the contemporary letters by Cicero telling us about the machinations involved during the end of the Republic, we have the physical evidence of the countries conquered by Caesar.

It's pretty clear that he existed.

Some people later claimed that he was a god. It's abundantly clear that he wasn't. Anyone who claimed that would be laughed away these days.

Why you think that a 'signature' is relevant is beyond me or any other reasoning creature. But reason is very clearly something that has bypassed you entirely.

You have failed to present a single piece of satisfactory evidence to prove your initial post. All of your obfuscations, distractions, tergiversations and simple sad lies have done nothing to add to the dismal start of the thread.,

I presume you think that you are some sort of messenger/defender of your non-existent god. You fail.

If any of my friends decided to turn Christian, I'd show them this thread with the confident expectation that they would not want to part of a religion that is defended by such disingenuous liars as yourself. In fact, I think that this thread stands as a brilliant example of just how little evidence there is to support the NT. You have provided none at all. None. Not even an iota.

You have convinced no one. You have converted no one. You have de-converted at least one person. Have you ever considered that your ineptitude is caused by Satan working through you?

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

For the record I have blocked Akhenaten. I asked him not to do something but he continues to do it. I believe this is the first person I've blocked in over 3 years on this system. I might unblock him in a month or so.

Well woo-hoo for you little matyr boy. You asked him not to use the word 'derail'.

Perhaps if you hadn't insisted on derailing your own thread, you might not have to have done so. If you had any honesty - and you don't - you would have blocked yourself for your pathetic persistence in posting debunked nonsense.

 

[tsig]

I'm not preaching, I forming a logical conclusion that if the historical person, Jesus, that secular historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Seutonius wrote of, did not teach his philosophy it is very possible given the the brutal sadistic behaviors of the Romans that Western Civilization as we know it would not be in existence and the world would likely be a much scarier place now.

Because you'd be scared without Jesus is not a logical argument for Christianity.

 

[Toke]

We have a difference of opinion. Talking of the teachings of the historical character Jesus is not derailing this thread and if you ever use the word derail or off topic again I'm going to block you.

Yes, it is derailing.
If you check the title of the tread you will see that you are supposed to give evidence for the truth of the NT.
Continuing to bring claims about the supposed merit of your religion is not it.

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

Doc -if you ever use the word evidence in the same sense that any normal thinking person would use it, then I might actually start to listen to you.

But if you continue lying, I will carry on thinking that christianity is a religion built on fraud, expanded through force and deception and now maintained through deliberate ignorance.

 

[paximperium]

How do you explain the Inquisition?
the American Genocides?
the Progroms?
The persistence of slavery and serfdom?
The general horrible brutality of European justice?


DOC, your argument is only logical if one completely ignores all of history.

One more

The Taiping Rebellion was a widespread civil war in China from 1850 to 1864, led by heterodox Christian convert Hong Xiuquan, against the ruling Qing Dynasty. About 20 million people died, mainly civilians, in one of the deadliest military conflicts in history.


Hong established the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom (Chinese: 太平天囯[1] pinyin: Tàipíng Tiān Guó), officially the "Heavenly Kingdom of Great Peace", with its capital at Nanjing. The Kingdom's Army controlled large parts of southern China, at its height containing about 30 million people. The rebels attempted social reforms and the replacement of Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion by a form of Christianity. Troops were nicknamed the Long hair (長毛, pinyin: cháng máo). The Taiping areas were besieged by Qing forces throughout most of the rebellion. The Qing government defeated the rebellion with the eventual aid of French and British forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_rebellion#Origins

 

[John Jones]

I'm not preaching, I forming a logical conclusion that if the historical person, Jesus, that secular historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Seutonius wrote of, did not teach his philosophy it is very possible given the the brutal sadistic behaviors of the Romans that Western Civilization as we know it would not be in existence and the world would likely be a much scarier place now.

1). You are preaching.

2). You have not demonstrated even a rudimentary understanding of logic.

3). WTF are you ranting about this time?

 

[John Jones]

We have a difference of opinion. Talking of the teachings of the historical character Jesus is not derailing this thread and if you ever use the word derail or off topic again I'm going to block you.

Oh my gosh! Does that condemnation apply to everyone?

"DERAIL" "OFF TOPIC".

Go ahead and block me too.

 

[Elizabeth I]

We have a difference of opinion. Talking of the teachings of the historical character Jesus is not derailing this thread and if you ever use the word derail or off topic again I'm going to block you.

Oooh-hoo! Scary!

For the record I have blocked Akhenaten. I asked him not to do something but he continues to do it. I believe this is the first person I've blocked in over 3 years on this system. I might unblock him in a month or so.

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we will be waiting with bated breath to see if you relent of your stern measures. I bet Akhenaten is really really really really really sorry now, too.

Do you often react like this when things happen that you didn't want to happen? Or are you the only person in the world - for that matter, in history - whose will is never thwarted?

 

[joobz]

I've talked about all of your specific subjects above before in other threads except Progoms and I"m not going to talk about them in this thread.

That doesn't make my argument any less valid.

 

[joobz]

For the record I have blocked Akhenaten. I asked him not to do something but he continues to do it. I believe this is the first person I've blocked in over 3 years on this system. I might unblock him in a month or so.

That is fine:

Would you mind addressing this argument?

But it is historical evidence, ask any historian.

Okie Dokes. Let's ask Edward Gibbon. Have you heard of him, DOC? He is, unlike Norman Geisler, a real historian.


"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians (who differed from their fellow Jews only in the belief that Jesus was the promised Messiah,) was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief. The doctrine of the incarnation, and the mystery of transubstantiation, were both adopted, and are both as repugnant to reason, as was the ancient pagan rite of viewing the entrails of animals to forecast the fate of empires!"

- Edward Gibbon (History of Christianity)