Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Akhenaten]

Well, if it isn't evidence that the NT writers were telling the truth, then somebody just isn't trying hard enough. Let's see, if it doesn't appear to contain said evidence, that must be evidence that the Jewish dudes were suppressing the evidence. Hence, it is evidence. There, that'll work.

It's a conspiracy, I tells ya!

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Actually the "library" at Alexendria was partially burned or destroyed more than once, the first time attributed to Julius Caesar accidentally setting part of it ablaze when he set fire to his own ships in 48 BCE.

Destruction of the Library

Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria:
-Julius Caesar's Fire in The Alexandrian War, in 48 BCE
-The attack of Aurelian in the third century CE;
-The decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in CE 391;
-The Muslim conquest in CE 642 or thereafter.

GB

 

[Akhenaten]

The library of Alexandria may have been burned once before 'jesus' was born yes, but the library was burned down twice after that.

So, the evidence that you were claiming existed was destroyed once before the events it supported had occurred and twice afterwards.

Righteo then.

And I'd SOONER believe that Joshua was born a bastard child rather than of a virgin birth... it explains things a whole lot better.

What you prefer to believe is totally irrelevent. It may have escaped your notice that 95% of this thread is all about explaining that evidence trumps personal belief, every time.

To answer your specific assertion above, you are employing the fallacy of creating a false dichotomy - neither of your proposed scenarios has to be true in order to explain 'things'.

Think about it. This account by celsus, was from the Jewish perspective, not the watered downed and soiled Christian perspective, but rather by those who wanted him dead.

Who wanted whom dead now? Got any evidence for this desire to do someone in? Or why they'd feel the need, given that the Romans had (or will have, depending on your chronology) already done the job for them.

Oh and lets not forget, that the apostles stole the body of their former leader, so that they could claim he rose from the 'dead'.

Do you have any unincinerated evidence for this?

I mean people if we stop to think logically about the situation here... it really can make sense.

So can Star Destroyers and Jedi knights. The coherence of the story doesn't enable the actuality though, does it?

I'll give you time to think about it.

And you are?

 

[Akhenaten]

Actually the "library" at Alexendria was partially burned or destroyed more than once, the first time attributed to Julius Caesar accidentally setting part of it ablaze when he set fire to his own ships in 48 BCE.

Destruction of the Library

Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria:
-Julius Caesar's Fire in The Alexandrian War, in 48 BCE
-The attack of Aurelian in the third century CE;
-The decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in CE 391;
-The Muslim conquest in CE 642 or thereafter.

GB

I'm glad I wasn't the one paying the insurance on that joint.

 

[Akhenaten]

The former Christian enemy Paul wrote down of his contact with Jesus.

Wrote it where, DOC? Please remember that 'in the bible' is not a valid answer.

Otherwise we'd have to believe that Muhammad had a little chat with the archangel Gabriel on Mount Hira in 610 CE, now wouldn't we?

Peter wrote of he was an eyewitness.

Show of he wrote it outside the bible and I will believe of him.

And the 11 of 12 apostles who died at different places and different times were probably to busy preaching and experiencing martyr deaths to do much writing.

Don't tell me - your evidence was in the Great Library too? Geeze that seems to happen a lot.

 

[John Jones]

Do you have any unincinerated evidence for this?

 

[John Jones]

Wrote it where, DOC? Please remember that 'in the bible' is not a valid answer.

Otherwise we'd have to believe that Muhammad had a little chat with the archangel Gabriel on Mount Hira in 610 CE, now wouldn't we?



Show of he wrote it outside the bible and I will believe of him.



Don't tell me - your evidence was in the Great Library too? Geeze that seems to happen a lot.

Don't you hate when that happens?

 

[Akhenaten]

Don't you hate when that happens?

It was ever thus. When I was a lad it was always "I'm sorry Miss, but Anubis ate my homework."

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

I'm glad I wasn't the one paying the insurance on that joint.

No kidding.

I was doing a little googling to find some more info on the "Jesus is Bastard son of Pantera" theory, and it seems that the only "evidence" is that some Jews were spoofing on the Virgin Birth claim. It appears to have been a pun based on the term "parthenos" (virgin) and the fact that Pantera was a fairly common Roman name.

Fox, everyone's got their own pet hypotheses about who Jesus might have been (I'm rather partial to Valentinian Gnostic Notions in a Psychologically Mythical way), but the fact remains, there is NO empirical evidence to support anyone's claims regarding Jesus outside of the Bible. And the Gospels are so shrouded in Myth that it is wide open to anyone's purely speculative interpretations.

It is practically impossible to verify Jesus existence, let alone the veracity of everyone's pet theories regarding him.

GB

 

[WanderingSkeptic]

.... there is NO empirical evidence to support anyone's claims regarding Jesus outside of the Bible. And the Gospels are so shrouded in Myth that it is wide open to anyone's purely speculative interpretations.
GB

Bingo ... direct hit ....

Yes indeed ... the very best you can manage is perhaps to attempt some textual analysis (ideally by scholars who have no religious agenda) ... to work out what was the base text, and what got added in along the way, and also consider historical facts that would have greatly influence the texts ... for example ...

it is thought that much of the end-times stuff in the text comes from what was going on ... in AD 66 there was a Jewish rebellion in the region, as you might imagine, the Roman war machine clanked into action and crushed them ... once the dust had settled by AD 73 ... thousands had been killed, and thousands have been enslaved ... for those living through all that, it must have felt like the end-times ...(this is the period when the Romans flattened the temple and slaughtered all the priests in Jerusalem) ... such events would have greatly influenced the NT text at this time, by layering an end-times layer on top of initial earlier texts.. textual analysis allows you to strip this away and that see whats left ... but ... remember, take with a pinch of salt ... its not (and never can be) a precise science, just a best guess ...

 

[cj.23]

There is a fun discussion here, heir to one on Rd.net, where amb and i take part -- under other names as it happens: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/c...ly-infer-about-the-historical-jesus-t219.html

cj x

 

[joobz]

But nobody is torturing, impaling them and using them as torches, tying animal skins to them and letting dogs tear them apart like Nero did to the Christians.

That actually weakens your point.
Majority opposition and persecution is known to STRENGTHEN a belief, not weaken it. http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/majorityopinion.htm

 

[joobz]

No, it is common sense. You don't blab about the supposed great things done by your enemy to the public

It is also common sense that the people advocating something are likely to stretch the truth regarding what they are advocating.

 

[joobz]

But it is historical evidence, ask any historian.

And not all evidence for Christianity comes from the bible. The thousands and thousands of changed lives for the better (that is happening today because of Christianity) is evidence of the power of the Gospel that we can observe today.

What about the thousands upon thousands whose lives were cut short or made much worse because of christianity?

Do their voices not matter?

 

[DOC]

You do know that the Romans did this kind of thing {tying animal skins to people and letting packs of dogs tear them apart, impaling people and then lighting them on fire to provide light at night} to all kinds of people, right? Captured enemy soldiers, disobedient slaves - it was a form of entertainment...

So I guess Christ did come at exactly the right time then if this was the behavior of the most powerful nation on earth. I think Joobz said one time Christ should have come later when there was better communication so more people could have witnessed his mininistry. But I think the above shows the world needed him desperately at that time.

And if the above was the behavior of the emperor and the most powerful nation on earth, a good argument could be made that yes, Christianity is the reason we even have a Western Civilization. Read the book "What if Jesus had never been Born". It is actually quite scary to think how the world might have turned out if Jesus never came.

 

[Akhenaten]

So I guess Christ did come at exactly the right time then if this was the behavior of the most powerful nation on earth.

You aren't supposed to be guessing, DOC, you're supposed to be providing evidence.

I think Joobz said one time Christ should have come later when there was better communication so more people could have witnessed his mininistry. But I think the above shows the world needed him desperately at that time.

No, it was Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Every time I look at you
I don't understand
Why you let the things you did
Get so out of hand
You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today
You could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.​

And if the above was the behavior of the emperor and the most powerful nation on earth, a good argument could be made that yes, Christianity is the reason we even have a Western Civilization.

No DOC, you're wrong again. What we call 'Western Civilization' was built on foundations which were laid long, long before christianity arrived to hobble everything (think 'Dark Ages').

Read the book "What if Jesus had never been Born".

The evidence we've seen so far is that he wasn't, so the 'What if' part seems a bit redundant.

It is actually quite scary to think how the world might have turned out if Jesus never came.

He didn't, and it's not.

Stop preaching at people.

 

[DOC]

...but the fact remains, there is NO empirical evidence to support anyone's claims regarding Jesus outside of the Bible...

How can you have empirical evidence of a the corpse that has never been found.

...It is practically impossible to verify Jesus existence....

The same could be said for Julius Caesar, we have no bones, no ashes, no signature for him -- just some statues like we have of Zeus, and some coins that have an image like we have an image of an eagle holding some arrows and olive leaves on our money.

 

[joobz]

So I guess Christ did come at exactly the right time then if this was the behavior of the most powerful nation on earth. I think Joobz said one time Christ should have come later when there was better communication so more people could have witnessed his mininistry. But I think the above shows the world needed him desperately at that time.

And if the above was the behavior of the emperor and the most powerful nation on earth, a good argument could be made that yes, Christianity is the reason we even have a Western Civilization. Read the book "What if Jesus had never been Born". It is actually quite scary to think how the world might have turned out if Jesus never came.

And what did the "christians" of the middle ages do to people they didn't like?

And if christ was never born? we'd simply have another dominant religion making the same stupid boot-strap argument.

 

[DOC]

Stop preaching at people.

I'm not preaching, I forming a logical conclusion that if the historical person, Jesus, that secular historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Seutonius wrote of, did not teach his philosophy it is very possible given the the brutal sadistic behaviors of the Romans that Western Civilization as we know it would not be in existence and the world would likely be a much scarier place now.

 

[Elizabeth I]

So I guess Christ did come at exactly the right time then if this was the behavior of the most powerful nation on earth. I think Joobz said one time Christ should have come later when there was better communication so more people could have witnessed his mininistry. But I think the above shows the world needed him desperately at that time.

And if the above was the behavior of the emperor and the most powerful nation on earth, a good argument could be made that yes, Christianity is the reason we even have a Western Civilization. Read the book "What if Jesus had never been Born". It is actually quite scary to think how the world might have turned out if Jesus never came.

Do you really want to discuss savagery? If so, we can talk about the savagery of the conquest of the Americas by Christians. We can talk about the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades and conversion at sword point. We can talk about the hundreds, perhaps thousands of helpless women tortured and killed during the witch hunts. We can talk about the behavior of Fred Phelps and his merry band of inbred lunatics.